For people who are “worried” that Ukraine targets data centers: Ukraine did not start it.
For the entire September, Russia conducted 10+ strikes on all key telecom, and internet provider data centers in Ukraine.
Now it is just a return
miki123211 9 minutes ago [-]
One interesting fact I've heard recently (I live in Poland; we share a border with Ukraine as well as with a part of Russia).
Russia went all in on "digital sovereignty." This is partly because the Russian government cares deeply about censoring what their citizens can see (which they can't do if those citizens consume content from American services), partly because the American services themselves cut Russia off because of sanctions-related concerns.
This makes Russian datacenters a much more attractive target for the Ukrainians. While Russia can (and does) bomb Ukrainian datacenters, the fact that Ukrainians are so reliant on US infrastructure (and could rapidly move local workloads to western clouds if the need was great enough) makes such operations far less attractive. It's much easier for Ukraine to strike some facility near Moscow than it is for Russia to strike Ashburn, Virginia.
Given the geopolitical concerns from both the east and the west, this makes the question of whether Europe should move content off of US infrastructure a lot more complicated.
mejutoco 32 seconds ago [-]
Ukraine can have servers outside of Ukraine. No meed to have servers in the USA. I dont think these issues are so connected. As long as the servers are somewhere Russia does not dare to bomb.
trebligdivad 1 minutes ago [-]
I'd heard (from someone trying to use them) that net connections into the Chinese clouds was very busy in the days around the start of the war, so the suggestion is they have critical stuff mirrored there.
m4rtink 2 hours ago [-]
Not to mention dozens of civilians killed by Russian strikes just in the last few days, including many children...
Yes, those sick psychopaths want to turn Kyiv and other major cities into uninhabitable deserts. They target bridges with regular cars in the middle of the day; attack buses, trains, residential buildings, gas stations, shopping malls, grocery stores, water and gas utilities. They declared a total war on Ukraine and removed all constraints on their methods.
1 hours ago [-]
dingaling911 1 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
bbor 9 minutes ago [-]
It honestly blows my mind that you can still hold such a grim, myopic opinion. Something tells me "they have nukes, we've gotta just let them expand" wouldn't apply if they were bombing your children.
spiderfarmer 20 minutes ago [-]
"Stop resisting" "Look what you made me do" "Dragging this out makes atrocious behaviour inevitable"
Ever heard of Game Theory?
Trump sucks at it. And by the looks of it, you're not very good either.
somenameforme 1 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
fooblaster 51 minutes ago [-]
The Russians have been targeting civilian infrastructure the entire war? Why is blowing up a Amazon warehouse suddenly opening a paradoras box?
somenameforme 25 minutes ago [-]
No they haven't. The nature of this conflict has shifted dramatically since Zelensky's 40 day plan. We're seeing what targeting civilian infrastructure actually looks like now, and it's horrific. Russia has had this capability for years but have not used it.
And again this isn't even about ethics. In normal situations targeting civilian infrastructure doesn't even make sense. When you blow up e.g. an Amazon warehouse or whatever, those are weapons that could typically have been put to far better use targeting the enemy or the sources supplying them. Instead all it does incite reciprocal responses and has sent this war into its most horrific phase, by far.
Marha01 7 minutes ago [-]
> Russia has had this capability for years but have not used it.
Complete bullshit, Russia has been targeting civilian infrastructure from the very beginning. The only thing that changed is that Ukraine is now running out of advanced air defense, so that more of the attacks are getting through.
gmerc 52 minutes ago [-]
After 2 years of the russians attacking civilian infrastructure, passenger trains, hospitals. Yes, it was time.
josh_p 49 minutes ago [-]
Russia has been indiscriminately attacking civilian structures since they started the war.
All I'm seeing is two sides continuing to escalate and respond to each other while the rest of the world watches.
magicalist 44 minutes ago [-]
lol, I'm sorry, you're claiming that Russia, who started this war in the first place and could stop literally any time, also has only started targeting civilian infrastructure in the last two months?
Thanks to everyone who suggested additions. Please keep adding foundations from your country in the comments.
uxhacker 24 minutes ago [-]
I have done a lot of work with KOLO Foundation - run by the Ukrainian tech community https://www.koloua.com/en/
Including KOLO dispersing medical equipment that I donated, and I can vouch that they are effective and very efficient.
rmind 5 hours ago [-]
Blue Yellow - a Lithuanian NGO supplying the Ukrainian military: https://blue-yellow.lt/en/ (you can specify the purpose for which you are donating, e.g. drones)
Since the very start, they already raised over €121 million.
walterlw 5 hours ago [-]
If in doubt - pick Come Back Alive. They have spotless reputation and invest into long-term projects such as military education and veteran sports/aid.
snapplebobapple 23 minutes ago [-]
Don't you want to target short term projects directly aimed at ending the russian threat first? Long term only matters if you make it there...
walrus01 6 hours ago [-]
If I can add one, this Canadian NGO is also organizing winter aid efforts for Ukrainian civilians: https://www.cufoundation.ca/
Stopify - https://stopify.org.ua/ A charity initiative created by a group of communication specialists and supporters of Ukraine. Legally the donations are collected by a well-known and experienced charity organization, Ziedot.lv, based in Riga, Latvia. All funds go towards purchasing necessary supplies for the Armed Forces of Ukraine, based on their requests to the Embassy of Ukraine in Latvia.
If you want to help Ukraine, call for article 5 and enlist.
inb4: yes, I'm too scared to do it myself, thanks for asking, the person in the mirror reminds me of that every day.
croes 5 hours ago [-]
Ukraine is not part of NATO
r618 5 hours ago [-]
NATO countries already encountered interactions with rasha weapons, including acts of sabotages in the rear.. (vrbetice munition depot in czech republic, arsons in poland,..)
at this point the article 5 could be in circulation even without Ukraine being mentioned..
saidnooneever 4 hours ago [-]
nato protects its own countries first. its not going to risk those to come towards non members. putin is pushing for it though so its likely not going to last long. Most countries in EU even far from these borders are on high alert, suffering lot of aecurity incidents and sabotage actions that were not happening before this war.
Irenology is the real cure for all of this though. political action or inaction will never bring, build, foster or protect peace because it is all rooted in polemology.
Muromec 5 hours ago [-]
Doesn't matter at this point. Everybody treats it like an insurance policy of sorts and not like a political decision, precisely to pretend they are not making a political decision.
You know what is funny about it? Russia does not benefit from US getting involved based on article 5, but guess who does.
croes 1 hours ago [-]
That’s why Russia attacks in the mentioned ways instead of an open attack.
So they can deny everything and play the victim.
They know the NATO countries won’t call article 5 for that.
And that benefits Russia
Muromec 4 hours ago [-]
Very important distinction, sure. The consequences will land in a different powerpoint slide depending on which article it goes by.
squidmaster 1 hours ago [-]
[dead]
walrus01 5 hours ago [-]
yet
entropyneur 6 hours ago [-]
Russia used to be quite advanced in information technology. At one point they prided themselves on being one of only four nations with Internet-scale search engines IIRC. Their little military operation already cost them lots of talent. And now they are actively losing infra too. Nice.
paaloeye 6 hours ago [-]
Yep, most of talent has left
thih9 6 hours ago [-]
Could you elaborate? What does this mean?
Edit: thanks for answers, this helps.
khalera 3 hours ago [-]
I am a top Russian CS degree alumna (HSE). I left Russia even before the war, but now most of my uni peers live and work abroad (US, EU, UK, Serbia, Armenia, Georgia, etc.). It is similar for the alumni of the other top universities there. And we made the right choice, both ethically and financially/career-wise, imo.
The Soviet Union arguably had some of world's finest engineering talent, but many of those most skilled left as soon as they could. Some of these, or their children, would go on to found startups.
fartfeatures 6 hours ago [-]
It means you shouldn't invade your neighbours and conscript your young people or you will ruin your economy.
TitaRusell 5 hours ago [-]
To be fair the nerds aren't sent to the front lines they get to work in a drone unit.
This war won't be over until the Russian army starts conscription in Moscow. The Czar will happily empty out the villages in Siberia and the Caucasus.
siva7 3 hours ago [-]
They may or may not. I wouldn't like to take on this bet.
_menelaus 4 hours ago [-]
Most young people with a conscience (which is most people that like to read) leave to avoid conscription in an unjust war.
badpun 28 minutes ago [-]
Drone units require good eyesight, reflexes, spatial orientation etc. FPS gamers are the best match, not coders.
verelo 5 hours ago [-]
I hope the MAGA folk threatening Canada take note.
pjc50 3 hours ago [-]
The plan for Canada is clearly to buy enough Quislings to force a secession vote.
gsky 5 hours ago [-]
They invaded the whole world already. I hope Canda be prepared for the worst
5 hours ago [-]
rididjdj374 6 hours ago [-]
just neighbours?
pixelpoet 5 hours ago [-]
Just neighbours, otherwise people might draw awkward comparisons to certain other warmongering nations.
watwut 3 hours ago [-]
But then again, American soldiers are not dying in that war the way Russian do. That would be different in war against neighbhood nation where you cant hide purely behind technology.
JumpCrisscross 5 hours ago [-]
> awkward comparisons to certain other warmongering nations
What Russia is doing in Ukraine is closer to America in Vietnam or Israel in Gaza than anything even Trump has done recently. And I doubt you’ll find many on this forum defending even the latter.
robbiep 5 hours ago [-]
It’s reasonably close to the economic murder/suicide the US has caused with its rubbish crack at Iran
saidnooneever 4 hours ago [-]
dont forget afghanistan, Iran Libya, Syria, etc etc. -_- none of these countries is doing well after their "liberation" or after their 'terrorists got bombed' or whatever wording (killed like dogs?) the current leader will have for it.
mschuster91 3 hours ago [-]
> dont forget afghanistan, Iran Libya, Syria
Out of these four, at least Syria is better off. Everything, literally everything is better than what the Assad regime was. The gruesomeness of Assad and his regime is on a level not seen since 1945.
Afghanistan was an utter failure of all of Western societies. Yes, we provided a generation worth of women with access to schools. But we never provided a way for Afghanistan as a country to stand on its own feet, instead we looked away while one half of the military didn't exist on paper and the other half raped children for funsies (look up "bacha bazi").
Libya... now that is mostly upon us Europeans. Ghaddafi, I'm glad this prick is gone, but again we didn't do anything to meaningfully help Libya grow, and by the time Putin began supporting oppositional warlords, the game was lost.
And Iran... oh dear god what a mess, dating back to the history of the US using Kurds for their aims and then letting them to die without support. This entire shitshow was a disaster from start to finish, even if the idea was noble - the Mullahs slaughtered tens of thousands of protestors the start of this year, it would have been incredibly unethical to just stand aside again.
fn-mote 22 minutes ago [-]
> even if the idea was noble
The idea of nobly saving people is just “think of the children” on the nation-state level. It sounds great but gets used for every politician’s own ends.
Muromec 2 hours ago [-]
Casualty count for entire Vietnam campaign for US is like two weeks at the current burndown rate for r-sia
tomrod 2 hours ago [-]
Why are people avoiding spelling "Russia"?
JumpCrisscross 6 hours ago [-]
> just neighbours?
Within the narrow scope of this
discussion, yes. Ukraine would have a harder time hitting data centers around Moscow if they didn’t share a land border.
wereHamster 5 hours ago [-]
I was in Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan not too long ago (both countries just to the south of Russia, for those not savvy of geography). Met plenty of young russians who moved there recently. I didn't have to ask why. Many of them used to work in the tech sector, it's easy for them to find new work.
TrickyRick 6 hours ago [-]
That anyone with a few brain cells and enough rubels has left the country
IsTom 6 hours ago [-]
A lot of people who could get out of Russia after the war started, did get out.
crazybonkersai 3 hours ago [-]
Majority has come back though after realization that the West does not really welcome Russians with open arms.
Sadly, this applies also to Ukraine. No one in their right mind will risk their limbs for clique of oligarchs and mini-oligarchs. Coincidentally children of oligarchs and mini-oligarchs left both countries as well. They basically wiped out their male millenial generation entirely, as this demographics had it the most difficult to leave these countries.
JumpCrisscross 6 hours ago [-]
> this applies also to Ukraine
It certainly does not. There is a huge and growing [1] (albeit still below ‘22 peak) tech outsourcing industry there.
Plus, likely Europe’s most advanced defense-industrial base for drones and, increasingly, missiles of all kinds. Being on the right side of a war works wonders for morale.
Ukraine's estimated population in 2022 was around 40 million. Various numbers provided by UN officials to Ukrainian govt officials have at various times put Ukrainian population (in govt controlled areas) at 35 million [1], 32 million [2], 22-25 million [3]. This with adult men being actively blocked from leaving Ukraine.
I work for a Ukrainian product firm and interviewed around 50 people in the last quarter for in-office work. Some of them are migrants discouraged by european salaries where an entry-level IT professional can make as much as a waiter.
Muromec 5 hours ago [-]
You can't really leave Ukraine (legally*) right now if you are in the conscriptable demographics (M 18-60), unless you have good reasons.
bpavuk 5 hours ago [-]
oh you can if you are younger than 23 and not in education. this exception initially started as "academic mobility" program - you had to somehow prove your intent to study before going abroad, I don't remember how - but then both govt and citizens realized that it's too much paperwork and impossible to organize properly, so the exception was generalized.
yeah, hating papers is our national trait at this point, given Diia and stuff XD
carstenhag 5 hours ago [-]
Why would "right now" matter if the war has been ongoing for 4.5 years? I live in Germany, many ukrainians moved here, had several coworkers and their families move.
lifestyleguru 5 hours ago [-]
Just after they gave nepo babies below age 26 enough time to leave the country.
simondotau 2 hours ago [-]
Having spoiled nepo babies on the front lines might be good in principle but probably more trouble than it’s worth in practice.
lifestyleguru 2 hours ago [-]
This war should be fought on all sides between oligarchs and their nepo babies exclusively.
simondotau 1 hours ago [-]
If we’re imagining what should happen, maybe imagine no war at all. Until then, practical reality matters more than class resentment, however justified.
5 hours ago [-]
paaloeye 6 hours ago [-]
Ones who didn't are asking stupid questions...
lifestyleguru 6 hours ago [-]
Cyprus, Georgia, UAE
tumdum_ 3 hours ago [-]
The talent has left but have you seen mass protests against Russian aggression in EU/US by those who left? I haven’t. And this is a big difference to the behaviour or Belarusians who fled - they are often seen across EU protesting against Lukashenko.
So the talent has left, but not because they disagree with Putin actions.
dylan604 3 minutes ago [-]
Does the fear of being poisoned have an affect on Russian ex-pats from being very vocal?
bluealienpie 3 hours ago [-]
And do most Americans who leave the US condemn American soldiers for murdering a million Iraqis and continuing to colonize their country? At a certain point just not engaging in these pointless wars should be enough.
dylan604 2 minutes ago [-]
Most are probably too busy dissing the health care situation
dysleixc 3 hours ago [-]
I have?
> On the first anniversary of the invasion, rallies took place in the main cities where Russian exiles settled, including Tbilisi, Vilnius, Berlin, Barcelona, Paris and London, with turnout in the hundreds. In Yerevan, protesters burned a picture of Putin.
> In November 2024, at least a thousand people marched through central Berlin behind Navalnaya, Yashin and Kara-Murza, with parallel rallies in cities including Prague, Vilnius, Yerevan, Lisbon and San Francisco.
> Another Berlin march followed in 2025, after the third anniversary of the full-scale invasion.
And not just EU/US but moreso in other countries, where the migration wave was much bigger, eg Georgia and Armenia; after those protests many Russians were banned from entering Georgia after a visa run, yet others continued protesting anyway. Just google it for christ sake?
Also to me, as a Russian immigrant, protesting from another country doesn't make a lot of sense.
Anyway, at this point your comments in this thread are pure ragebait and not worth spending time replying to.
jacquesm 1 hours ago [-]
Thank you. Getting out is one of the strongest forms of protest. At the same time, you likely still have family there and that alone would be a good reason to be careful. Even so, there are plenty of Russians abroad that still carry water for putin and those are despicable, more so because they clearly have access to all the information they could want and from their comfy new lives they call for more suffering for others.
khalera 3 hours ago [-]
Are you kidding? E.g. in Berlin there are major protests every couple of months. They are not destructive (why would we destroy Germany‘s infra and police?), so maybe you do not hear about them as much. But they are quite numerous and regular. Ideally they should be in Russia AND destructive, but most normal people fled, yes.
2 hours ago [-]
barrenko 5 hours ago [-]
Among them also Dan Abramov I think.
cromka 4 hours ago [-]
Yeah but I assume vast majority simply works from remote for the same companies they did?
khalera 47 minutes ago [-]
I know a couple of people who do that, but unless you settled in a really cheap country (for Russians that would likely be Armenia or Kazakhstan), you would really struggle to make ends meet with a Russian salary. And IT-folks who are used to luxury in Russia do not like that :)
Also in countries with structured laws for social security, residence permits, pensions etc., you will most likely be caught for doing shady things (not paying local taxes or not paying social contributions). And if you do pay them, you are even more financially screwed. E.g. in Germany an employed person who is not supported by a local employer in paying social security would give away well over a half of their salary. So… either you REALLY live a shady life / life in a “developing” country with no tax control or you have to integrate and find a local / unsanctioned job. Maybe not right away, but it has been >4 years, most people have done this already. There are really little incentives to stay employed in Russia. Of course, there are companies who moved themselves (ex-Yandex parts, Jetbrains, etc). But they are now registered / taxed / employing elsewhere. Even if operating partially in Russian language.
uhx 4 hours ago [-]
Russian payment systems are barely supported in the other world, so its kinda hard to work remotely and get paid in roubles
cromka 4 hours ago [-]
Fair point, but there are loopholes and IT people know how to use them. There was a YT video on the subject, iirc.
rajnathani 5 hours ago [-]
Out of curiosity, which was the 4th nation besides the US and China?
entropyneur 5 hours ago [-]
Czechia, quite surprisingly. But that was some time ago now, there are probably more these days (and might have been even then, I think my source is a Yandex speaker at a conference)
bpavuk 5 hours ago [-]
I guess it's France with its Qwant engine. decent for coding and French (culture, language, or both) queries. didn't use it for much else tho
risyachka 4 hours ago [-]
>> Russia used to be quite advanced in information technology
it really never was. apart from a few one-off examples they have nothing if interest and quality.
crazybonkersai 3 hours ago [-]
Yandex, Kaspersky, Telegram, Intellij (including Kotlin), Nginx, VK to name a few. All those are coming from Russia.
risyachka 2 hours ago [-]
yes they can clone western companies.
very valuable, very high tech.
for nginx/intelij - you can find a few good examples in any country on earth.
does not make the country good in tech.
crazybonkersai 1 hours ago [-]
[dead]
elimgta 6 hours ago [-]
Great! More news like this
Maybe this would remind ordinary russians that killing innocent civilians every day in Kyiv is not good
nomilk 5 hours ago [-]
> remind ordinary Russians
Ordinary Russians think the war's bad too. Only difference is you and I can say that without getting 15 years in a (very harsh) prison.
kpil 4 hours ago [-]
I'm not totally sure about that.
Maybe Russians outside Russia.
Of course almost everyone thinks war is bad, but many seem to think it's justified - different thing.
There seem to be a wide support for the idea that Russia is threatened (economically and to an extent military) by the global West, and also that Ukraine is not entitled to be independent and also many of the official lies about the background.
Good lies have a nugget of truth in them, and this is the case also here.
Russia's economy is not growing (compared to EU, US), fertility rate is down, the revolution in Ukraine undermines the stability of the Russian regime, the attempted coup in Belarus was also a threat, NATO is arguably expanding - lately as a reaction to the war but nonetheless, EU is expanding into post-Soviet states both offering membership but also trade agreements which undercut Russia's ambition to be an economical hub in the region, etc.
xtracto 37 minutes ago [-]
It's like Americans thinking thar what their president is doing is right. Nobody in there is doing anything to stop it.
nomilk 4 hours ago [-]
Often, both are true. It's perfectly legitimate for anyone (Russian or otherwise) to have geo-political concerns (e.g. NATO expansion, Cuban missile crisis etc), but a Russian concerned about NATO expansion may also be very opposed to the extreme option of war as a solution.
War affects an ordinary Russian in very negative ways: the possibility of conscription (w/ risk of injury/death), complications for travel, sanctions on goods and services, and the economic opportunity cost (money wasted on war that could have gone to productive uses, plus reduced economic output due to drone strikes on yandex, wildberries, refineries).
killerstorm 3 hours ago [-]
Russia could fully integrate into EU/NATO if it really wanted.
That's just not compatible with ambitions of its corrupt leaders who want to be a root-level player, not "one of NATO countries". And I'm not sure how legitimate is prioritization of wants of corrupt leaders over well-being of your compatriots.
jacquesm 1 hours ago [-]
Unsurprisingly, the same motivates the current crop of leadership in the US. They stopped teaching history in school I guess.
RuslanL 29 minutes ago [-]
They have asked to be a part of nato twice around 2000th and were both times rejected.
killerstorm 15 minutes ago [-]
NATO is not something you can just apply to on a whim. The path for a membership was there: e.g. there were some joint exercises, etc. Obviously they also need political integration as well.
Russia actually have been a member of Council of Europe (PACE, etc.) since 1996 but it was expelled in 2022. If they had a good record in Council of Europe they could really go for NATO membership eventually.
RuslanL 3 minutes ago [-]
Ok, about the path you describe: how can one join a military exercise without a prior green light for that? And speaking about the political integration: remember that Turkey is in nato, so it does not need more political integration than Russia had in early 2000th.
What happened is that nato realized that if Russia joins, it will loose the reason to exist (i.e. if the old enemy joins the alliance what is the need for such an alliance anymore?)
So nato bureaucrats understood that they will loose well-paying positions and rejected even initial talks.
formvoltron 2 hours ago [-]
imagine if Putin had said... we are slipping behind the west. They are threatening us. So... we'll double down on research & education. We'll outthink them. We'll shift our economy into an economy that thrives in the future.
SEJeff 31 minutes ago [-]
Pretty much precisely what the US did during the Cold War. To do so, we had to outspend the Soviets, and by a LOT. But the world buying US treasury bonds was basically a credit card for us to finance the above things that result into the world’s strongest military.
killerstorm 3 hours ago [-]
Ordinary Russians think "yeah war sucks, I wish Ukraine surrenders so peace can be restored". I'm afraid only a tiny minority believes Russia needs to surrender.
Lio 2 hours ago [-]
It’s worth pointing out that Russia doesn’t need to “surrender” to stop the war. It just needs to withdraw.
That’s not surrender because Russia started this invasion without provocation. It wasn’t under attack and Ukraine hadn’t joined NATO.
Russia had no reason to invade except as a show of force.
If Putin suddenly declared he’d met his objectives and withdrew who’s to say otherwise?
conmod278 2 hours ago [-]
When the pager attack happened, there was a implicity sentiment on focusing on the technical details and not focus on politics. But I didn't see the same sentiment when Iran ballistic missles did their job.
preisschild 2 hours ago [-]
Irans BMs primarily targeted cities, the pager attacks resulted in a lot less civilian casualties
brabel 2 hours ago [-]
Does anyone really believe Russia will eventually just surrender and leave? I can’t imagine the rationale to believe that. When Putin leaves all indications are that the next leader will actually be much more hawkish. They will only leave if someone bombs them to death. Which is quite a dangerous thing to do. Ukraine is pushing the limits, and everyone knows it’s with the help of many EU countries. I wonder what it will take for Russia to reach desperate measures in this war.
simondotau 2 hours ago [-]
Russia have been taking desperate measures for years. The only thing they haven’t done is use nukes, which Russia can’t use without consequences that vastly outweigh the benefits.
kolinko 2 hours ago [-]
They left Afghanistan. Also, Imdon’t see Ukraine giving up any time soon either.
killerstorm 2 hours ago [-]
I see no reason why they can't agree on a truce: Russia haven't gained any meaningful ground for a while. A truce or even a peace treaty would be strictly beneficial to Russia.
ivan_gammel 1 hours ago [-]
Any outcome short of surrender of Ukraine is an enormous headache for Putin that will likely cost him and his system dearly. They simply cannot, or they will be dead. Why? Because a million of veterans coming back and telling the stories will ask this question: „Why?“ The „Nazis“ are still in Kiev, the NATO is coming, what we got is just thousands of kilometers of ruins, what for was that? The war keeps them busy, for now. The situation is worse for Ukraine than for Russia, so it may feel like they can go on and actually win.
The same can be actually said about Zelensky, for whom any concessions to Russia mean political death too. If Ukraine loses territories forever, people will ask, why so many had to die for that. What was the plan. And blaming the West (which won‘t be 100% justified) will not help. And he may feel that now he is applying good pressure too, with those drone strikes and knocked out refineries.
bamboozled 3 hours ago [-]
For the time being.
rcMgD2BwE72F 4 hours ago [-]
Are they physically forced to vote for Putin? And how widespread is the electoral fraud?
stratos123 8 minutes ago [-]
Before the latest Russian election one of the parties opposed the war in Ukraine and was a bit too popular, so, well, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yabloko :
Yabloko is the sole officially registered party to openly oppose the Russian war in Ukraine, openly calling "for peace and freedom". The party planned to partake in the 2026 Russian legislative election under their anti-war slogan.[29][30] However, in August 2026, the party was barred from running by the Supreme Court of Russia due to a lawsuit by Rodina.
Well, some decades ago if you were a school teacher, you were _asked_ to (1) vote "right" yourself (2) call all parents and ask them to vote "right". If you disobeyed, the school got problems and you got problems. Maybe not enough to make all people comply, but sufficient to get the right outcomes. Same goes for all government-funded workers.
Since then I think they simplified the system and just forge the results outright.
tl;dr Other parties are Putin-like, and if/when a genuine alternative emerges, Putin deals with them ruthlessly. Example: Navalny was the charismatic leader of a small but popular rival party with anti-corruption policies. He was initially delegitimised (not allowed to partake in the 2018 elections due to [likely fake] charges of embezzlement), then poisoned (nearly died), then imprisoned, and then killed while in prison.
Consider the terrifying message that sends to would-be political rivals...
KingOfCoders 6 hours ago [-]
40.000 - 100.000 dead civilians.
Estimate range is big because lots of civilians died in cities that ended up occupied.
schleck8 6 hours ago [-]
What is this number referring to? When I google it I only find chechen war, gaza, and US gun deaths annually
squidbeak 5 hours ago [-]
Mariupol's civilian casualties are hard to establish. Some of the upper estimates [1] run to 100,000 killed. Over just a couple of months.
"innocent civilians every day in Kyiv is not good".
Estimations for how many civilians Russians killed in Chechnya range from 45,000 to 80,000.
debugnik 6 hours ago [-]
They were asking for a reference/source, not to be treated like an idiot.
KingOfCoders 6 hours ago [-]
"What is this number referring to?"
Does not sound like looking for a source, but I'm not a native speaker.
IshKebab 5 hours ago [-]
I am. You are correct.
6 hours ago [-]
jazzyjackson 6 hours ago [-]
I suppose they’re mixing up deaths with injuries
From the start of Russia’s full-scale invasion in February 2022 to December 2025, 14,999 Ukrainian civilians were killed and 40,601 injured, according to the United Nations Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine (HRMMU).
> And of course not a word about the people in Russia killed by Ukranians (Kursk region and daily killings by drones, of civilians, which the west is "not aware of").
Russia could stop this invasion any time and not a single Russian would be hurt. Pure Kreml propaganda on HN, how sad.
Stitch4223 4 hours ago [-]
I’m not able to find this citation in the human rights watch link you reply to, nor elsewhere on this page nor the Yandex page.
Are we looking at the same thing? Was it deleted somewhere?
testaccount28 6 hours ago [-]
i mean, presumably so could ukraine?
cluckindan 5 hours ago [-]
Yes, capitulate to the attacker. Cease to exist as a country, nation, people, culture. Presumably that is an option!
Lio 1 hours ago [-]
Where Russia was forced out of Ukraine they left behind mass civilian graves. Bodies found with hands tied behind their backs, shot in the back of the head.
Surrendering to Russia does not bring peace to Ukraine only more suffering.
They have to fight on, Russia does not.
masfuerte 6 hours ago [-]
If Ukraine ceased military activity, why do you think Russia wouldn't continue their invasion?
KingOfCoders 6 hours ago [-]
How could Ukraine stop the Russian invasion?
walterlw 5 hours ago [-]
and be overrun by soldiers who kill civilians with drones, rape and pillage? No thanks
KingOfCoders 6 hours ago [-]
1) The invasion started at least in 2014 (you could argue before that)
2) The UN estimate is considered on the low end because it looks into confirmed deaths while many civilians were killed in cities that became occupied and we have no numbers from there.
crabbone 5 hours ago [-]
The highest, by far, death numbers come from Mariupol. It's a city close to the Russian border that was attacked very early in the war, but didn't surrender quickly like most other cities in the South. The estimates are somewhere close to 25K dead in this city alone. Civilians were unable to evacuate, and it was the time when Russia had plenty of resources, especially artillery munitions to expend and their tactics were to do massive artillery bombardment (often with rocket artillery) before massive motorized assault. So, lack of precision, or as some jokingly call it "accuracy through saturation".
Since Mariupol fell to Russia, they never counted the dead. There are horror stories of the bodies not being buried for month after surrender, and in some cases, Russians simply pawed over the places with many dead (a prominent example is the theater in the city center, but there were more).
The numbers you are quoting are the "counted" ones. Mariupol, Sieverodonetsk, Kherson, saw a lot of deaths that were never counted.
Sorry to bring another conflict into the picture, but it's useful to illustrate the point. In Gaza, the "health ministry" used a different "technique" to count the dead. Normally, to establish that someone died, there has to be a qualified medical professional at the scene, they also have to get a hold of identifying documents (or else, they will be counted as "John/Jane Doe", but in the morgue, much later). In some "special" cases a non-medical professional may record a death (they are usually defined using the language like "the head is more than 50 cm away from the rest of the body" etc.) But they switched to "incorporating reports from the news sources" (i.e. if some newspaper reported X people killed in some event, they just added X to the tally).
After the front line stabilized in Ukraine, they had no reason (or excuse) to count their civilian casualties in the way Gaza administration did, so, they never incorporated those who were never properly reported. And that's why we have a relatively "low" numbers. If Ukraine is ever able to regain control of the territory captured after 2022, these numbers are bound to go much, much higher, as they will have to deal with eg. property ownership and would have to either declare the previous owners as deceased, or actually find them.
troupo 6 hours ago [-]
It's likely much higher considering the completely destroyed cities and towns. E.g. Mariupol had a population of 450 000 before the war.
whatdouthink 5 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
AndyPa32 5 hours ago [-]
You may not want to hear this, but this came down on you the day russian troups entered a sovereign country, the day your missiles attacked a sovereign country.
Slava Ukraini!
The audacity of those bots these days.
whatdouthink 4 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
monkey_monkey 3 hours ago [-]
> which means that this comment will have a very short life (if at all).
A bit like some of the conscripted Ruzzian orcs, eh?
KingOfCoders 2 hours ago [-]
"the causes of war"
Simple, Putin talked about this for decades, you can read about it:
The goal is the re-establishment of the Russian empire in it's largest borders, beginning with his massacres in Chechnya and the invasion of Georgia.
2 hours ago [-]
hasley 4 hours ago [-]
Your country started the war murdering thousands of Ukrainians. So, what do you expect?
whatdouthink 4 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
KingOfCoders 2 hours ago [-]
"Ukranians were murdering Russian people in Donbass"
Russia settled Russians in Ukraine to control/destroy it for decades (like in the Baltics, Georgia and in many different places, the usual Russian tactic). Then Russia instigated a civil war in Ukraine and finally invaded Ukraine in 2014, so there were fights in Donbass back then with deaths (Russia also shot down a Malaysian plane in 2014 from Donbass).
"Your weapons are murdering Russian civilians right now, but you don't care, why?"
Because those Russian civilians voted and supported a dictator who wanted and wants to invade Europe and re-enslave the population. And Russians loved it, they loved it plundering and murdering and torturing people in Europe before and they will again.
Russia encouraged Serbs to start WW1 because Russians wanted to invade Europe through their puppets on the Balkans, later invaded Europe in 1939 in a joint military operation with the Nazis/Germans and will do so again whenever Russians see the chance to do so.
I would prefer no war but a big wall, mile deep minefields and drone/ballistic/SDI defenses instead to keep Russians out and stop them from invading Europe again, but I guess Russia needs to first lose this war to make this a reality.
KingOfCoders 5 hours ago [-]
"Russian civilians are killed daily by the Ukranian drones"
Looks like Ukrainians don't believe in "turn to him the other cheek".
whatdouthink 3 hours ago [-]
If (if..) you have at least the decency to admit what the situation really is (though of course not what - or who - led to it, that would be too much for you), then you are at least not completely out of touch with reality.
KingOfCoders 2 hours ago [-]
The situation is Russians invaded Ukraine, murdered, plundered, tortured and raped Ukrainians, and then Ukrainians, instead of dropping dead like everyone expected, fought back.
What led to it? Putin wanting to re-establish the Russian empire as he said and wrote many times about.
It's a mystery to me, Hitler wrote exactly what he wanted to do, he did it and people were surprised. Putin wrote exactly what he wanted to do, he did it and people were surprised. A mystery.
walterlw 5 hours ago [-]
Clarification: Starlink does not operate within Russia. If it did there would be fewer civilian casualties as drones would be guided to the actual targets.
Civilian casualties are always a tragedy, it's just that russians don't care about them anymore - malls, transport hubs etc are targeted during the day. Putin explicitly says he wants us to freeze during winter and his propagandists cry for frontline cities as well as Kyiv, Kharkiv and others to be bombed into oblivion.
simondotau 2 hours ago [-]
Starlink operating beyond areas of Ukraine control is a double-edged sword for Ukraine, as we saw in recent history where Russia was using smuggled Starlink terminals for their own military comms.
RealityVoid 50 minutes ago [-]
Yes, and they used whitelists/blacklists and it worked. But at the rate things are going I would not be surprised to see direct US assistance to Russia at some point in the future.
5 hours ago [-]
Muromec 5 hours ago [-]
Sakhalin and Kamchatka are safe I heard.
KingOfCoders 4 hours ago [-]
For now.
whatdouthink 6 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
raverbashing 6 hours ago [-]
Also helps with removing bots from X (to much of Elon's disagreement)
enaaem 5 hours ago [-]
I remember that during the Wagner rebellion there was a 24h-48h time frame of no Russian bot activities. Was kinda surreal.
TheOtherHobbes 5 hours ago [-]
Prigozhin was one of Putin's chief botmasters. He helped set up the Internet Research Agency, which was one of Russia's biggest troll farms.
miroljub 6 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
schleck8 6 hours ago [-]
US-owned datacenters in the middle east were already blown up with the drone family that Russia has been mass-procuring from Iran
hasley 6 hours ago [-]
One goal is probably to show average Russians that the war is not just something which happens somewhere else in the world - a side-note on the news, no need to bother about.
The question why people who do not agree with the government should also pay the price for a war started by their government/country is not specific to this war.
miroljub 2 hours ago [-]
So you want to show it to Russians but not Americans? Why? USA is the nation responsible for most destruction post WW2 around the world, Russia is not even close.
jeltz 5 hours ago [-]
You mean exactly like Iran did?
miroljub 2 hours ago [-]
Iran destroyed data centres in the USA?
I missed that in news. Can you point to the source?
toomuchtodo 6 hours ago [-]
The best the world can do is move away from US treasuries (redirecting that capital investment domestically) and importing from the US, causing long term economic decline. This applies the pain broadly to the US electorate who voted for this.
Muromec 6 hours ago [-]
Why do you make it sound like a rhetorical question?
victorbjorklund 5 hours ago [-]
AWS was already struck by Iranians.
altmanaltman 6 hours ago [-]
You make it seem as if they are not active targets for many. Its just really, really hard to attack a datacenter in the US with a ballistic missile. Israel gets hit pretty regularly as well.
The beautiful thing about US war is that it never gets back home. The moment it starts, the populance starts pulling back support. But if you are shooting random people in the desert and middletown nowhere's McDonald's are functioning, its all gravy.
microtonal 5 hours ago [-]
The beautiful thing about US war is that it never gets back home.
Have you checked the diesel prices?
altmanaltman 2 hours ago [-]
High diesel prices are not equivalent to getting your cities bombed every day. Imagine going to work but having to divert because some country bombed the highway. That is the reality for countries usually at war with the US, but not for the US, where you have the liberty to go like, "Hey, this war is kind of bad" after watching diesel prices, not after watching Uncle Jamal's head get blown off.
hoholrapist 6 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
flexagoon 6 hours ago [-]
Завтра в школу дружище отдохни
gpt5 6 hours ago [-]
Data centers are becoming higher priority targets in wars recently, and with humans delegating more to AI, I suspect their priority will increase even further.
Makes me wonder how much compute is already being built in bunkers under mountains.
Datacenters are full of valuable computers and related equipment, but building the equivalent space under a mountain will cost a crazy amount.
Not worth paying 100x for the bunker to save 1x worth of computer stuff.
walrus01 6 hours ago [-]
Building any appreciable amount of compute capacity (on the scale of, let's say, a single large datacenter in northern VA) inside a mountain also becomes a huge heat rejection problem, since with the exception of the 0.00000000001% that leaves the facility as photons down a SM fiber cable, 100% of the energy consumed is turned into heat.
So you build your stuff inside a mountain and run a bunch of big ass liquid cooling loops to heat exchangers in the atmosphere outside the mountain. The requirement of the cooling system being out in the open air means it can also be hit by air strikes, an adversary doesn't need to penetrate the mountain, just take out its cooling.
You'd have to build a fully underground cooling system that goes to a nearby river (or huge lake) and use the cold water from that, which would get costly quick.
jltsiren 5 hours ago [-]
> You'd have to build a fully underground cooling system that goes to a nearby river (or huge lake) and use the cold water from that, which would get costly quick.
Helsinki gets its water from the 120 km Päijänne Water Tunnel, which cost €200-250 million (adjusted for inflation) to build. Peak flow is 10 m^3/s by gravity alone and up to 20 m^3/s with pumps, which should be enough to cool a 1 GW data center. You could increase the cost by 2x (because real wages have gone up), by another 2x (because middlemen have destroyed productivity), and by yet another 2x (because everything is more expensive in America), and it would still be pretty reasonable.
spiderfarmer 5 minutes ago [-]
It's like the Hyperloop all over again.
Musk comes up with a crazy idea.
Investors, "analysts" and sycophants go to great lengths to defend it.
Rational people wonder if everyone is losing their mind.
Musk profits.
Brybry 5 hours ago [-]
Iron Mountain does it but they used an existing limestone mine with a large water reservoir [1][2]
Edit: I guess the scale isn't comparable to a, for example, Google data center though.
They already run liquid cooling loops - compute density is way beyond what could circulate through air. Adding more pipes is probably trivial on the scale of datacenter expenses
walrus01 2 hours ago [-]
Liquid cooling loops don't solve the problem of needing to reject the heat to the atmosphere outside of the building. It just makes it more efficient to transport the heat. At the grossest possible definition, a datacenter of N megawatts on Y acres of land is going to emit the same amount of heat whether it's air cooled equipment or liquid is used to take the heat to the outdoor heat exchanging equipment. On the scale of any very large datacenter the heat exchanging equipment is visible from aerial photos (and from space), take a look at google maps for some of the largest hyperscalers for examples.
killerstorm 1 hours ago [-]
I assume that "liquid cooling loop" has an endpoint outside of the building which hosts hardware. In this case it's exactly same problem - just make pipes longer.
Do you need many acres of land to host a heat exchanger?
efnx 6 hours ago [-]
So they want to build it in space. Trade one heat problem for another, but put it completely out of range (for most attackers).
spiderfarmer 2 minutes ago [-]
Yeah, but which attackers do we have to worry about nowadays?
Pionen in sweden is a datacenter in a bunker. The Pirate Bay used to be hosted there.
walrus01 6 hours ago [-]
A few racks or even a couple of dozen racks could be called a datacenter, but nothing on any real scale. Enough to host important and niche things? Sure. I was referring more to like the size of what you might see in Quincy, WA.
jeltz 4 hours ago [-]
Pionen is small but it is quite a bit bigger than "a couple of dozen racks". More like 100-200 if I recall correctly.
jacquesm 1 hours ago [-]
By 1990's standards that was small. Today it is tiny.
martinjc 31 minutes ago [-]
In the US the most common deployed size is below 5MW?
Dont know why i can't reply to the person commenting below. But where's the statistics? Who has these datacenters out in the field?
jacquesm 14 minutes ago [-]
Yes, but that's not where the volume is. A 'small' data center, even here in Europe has 100's of racks. There are of course many tiny ones but collectively they don't even add up to one single large Google or AWS DC. Those things will run in excess of 1 or even 2 GW.
You could probably drill sideways into rocks and pump heat into the mountain for a certain period of time, but on a multi-month or year time scale, it would catch up with you after you had saturated it.
jazzyjackson 6 hours ago [-]
The bunkers are already out there e.g. limestone mines in US, Italy,
Lots of people have built commercial, non-military, boutique scale stuff in hardened facilities, nobody I'm aware of has done it at scale. There's certainly money to be made from selling expensive "we put datacenter stuff deep down inside a mine" maybe to some weird enterprise and government customers, so the revenue per rack (or per theoretical 208V 30A circuit?) is probably a lot more than commodity colo. But I would very much like to see the aerial photos, if anyone can link them, to a claimed large scale underground or hardened datacenter.
It's a severe engineering challenge to hide massive heat exchangers on the scale of the datacenters built in the industrial area near Dulles (coordinate example: 38.9817915,-77.417775). Find those on a map and observe the scale of their cooling and generator systems and then try to find anything comparable that's been built underground.
boelboel 4 hours ago [-]
There's some 200MW capacity (only 80MW is currently used or being built) data center in a mine near a fjord in Norway. The limiting factor for its capacity seems to be the capacity of the electricity net nearby (which you can just hit and the DC is useless). With how NIMBY Norwegians are there's no way it would ever get to a GW or more even if it might be both technically and economically feasible. That's just one project and can't be replicated anywhere else. It's just a massive advantage that above ground datacenters are relatively 'figured out' and similar everywhere.
edit: 61.9340107, 5.5084207 are the coordinates
walrus01 30 minutes ago [-]
Do you know if that 200MW figure is total power budget for the facility (including electricity used for cooling systems and other facilities-support systems), or up to 200MW of electronics loads generating heat? The latter would be something like 300 cabinets with 5-6kW heat each.
boelboel 18 minutes ago [-]
Apparently it's for the whole facility, they have a power usage effectiveness of around 1.1 so 175-180MW of electronics.
Agreed it’s small potatoes, and as a sibling mentions you will still have infrastructure exposed that poses a target to disable the data center, unless you were to drill geothermal and find an underground river to cool it.
Just wanted to make the point you don’t have to pay to excavate the cave :)
misiek08 5 hours ago [-]
Germans hid plane engine factories underground with old (not so efficient) diesel generators running 24/7. 80 years ago, so the tech was leaner.
Also they didn’t have issues with ventilation and even today if you don’t know where - you won’t see anything driving around.
IshKebab 5 hours ago [-]
That's probably just because there's not much demand for it, not because it's difficult.
There are mines with plenty of space in them, and heat removal can be done with water cooling. But who is going to pay 50% more for that when it isn't needed 99.99% of the time?
walrus01 5 hours ago [-]
Or when the same thing can be accomplished by putting nothing in a mine, but an approach as simple as having geographical diversity by paying for some 'normal' colo in Hillsboro, and more normal colo in northern VA on the other side of the continent, and duplicating your stuff between two facilities. Weird underground datacenters aren't exactly known for having a large number of competing on-net carriers.
jeltz 4 hours ago [-]
> Weird underground datacenters aren't exactly known for having a large number of competing on-net carriers.
Huh? The ones I know of have plenty of connectivity. The real issue is your first, that people prefer to just put their stuff in two countries over paying premium for having their servers under ground.
walrus01 4 hours ago [-]
Your definition of connectivity may not be the same as mine, I'm referring to the number of facilities based carriers and those who ride on top of them you can get at major sites in Hillsboro. Facilities with peeringdb pages that have tons of on net carriers. Is there even an underground bunker colo that's big enough to rate its own peeringdb facility page?
roenxi 6 hours ago [-]
It might be possible to do on the cheap; underground mines get decommissioned from time to time and could be repurposed as a data centre.
Although I personally would expect some sort of decentralisation option to be more effective. It's difficult to even theorise because we don't know exactly what sort of damage these strikes are doing and what countermeasures are already in place. If this strike has caught Yandex by surprise after almost 5 years of hot war then they really should hire a dude to check up on current events every so often. They must have some sort of contingency planning around a Ukrainian strike.
microtonal 6 hours ago [-]
It's sad that we have moved away so far from the decentralized web from the 90s and the P2P boom of the 00s. Just like solar panels on every house as a source of energy are much harder to take out than just a few power plants, local P2P storage, messaging, source management, etc. are much harder to take out.
But yeah, the economic incentives are creating unicorns and centralizing compute/capital/etc.
jeltz 4 hours ago [-]
The war in Ukraine had showed us that distributed power generation, like solar, and nuclear are most resilient. Nuclear because people do not dare striking the power plants.
6 hours ago [-]
kolinko 2 hours ago [-]
With AI there is little data in datacenters - the only thing you lose is % compute.
nixass 18 minutes ago [-]
Datacenters are not only "data"
PowerElectronix 2 hours ago [-]
In bunkers, IDK. In places far away from conflict or conflictive nations, a lot.
paaloeye 6 hours ago [-]
They will probably start building DCs in Siberia. Cheap cooling!
microtonal 6 hours ago [-]
That's probably not going to help much. Ukraine has been able to hit targets very far inland with drones. They are also rapidly making advances in ballistic missile development. FP-7 has a range of 200-300km, their new FP-9 will have a range of up to 855km and an accuracy of 20m. I know that Russia is (extremely) large, but with development going at this pace...
dunno, Moscow to Novosibirsk is around 1,800 miles straight-line distance.
The war would be probably over by the time Ukraine would have developed those capabilities.
boelboel 5 hours ago [-]
Novosibirsk only has cheap cooling in the winter, in the summer months it is hot. Better to go somewhere like Sabetta where they have their LNG harbour.
ivan_gammel 2 minutes ago [-]
You will need a cable to that location, that will eat significant share of the costs. Location in southern Siberia near some big hydro may work better, and connecting it will be easier to some existing trans-Siberian line.
conmod278 2 hours ago [-]
You are also forgetting the undersea cables.
toomuchtodo 6 hours ago [-]
Power and data has to come from somewhere for those bunkers. Every fiber hut and power substation becomes a target. Can they all be protected? No.
jeltz 4 hours ago [-]
Fibers? Yes, they are easy to protect. The hard part is power generation.
toomuchtodo 4 hours ago [-]
Buried fiber, hard to attack. Fiber repeater shelters, easy to attack. Their locations are public information, and any non public are trivial to find, in my experience as a cybersecurity professional who seeks out infra vulnerabilities for reporting for fun. Public records, satellite imagery, all OSINT one can do from a workstation.
You could potentially bury them in the ground, assuming you don’t use a generator for backup power. To my knowledge, this is not done today except in urban areas where an underground vault is used for power and comms.
I don't think Yandex DCs are used directly for military purposes much. It's more about harming Russian economy in general, including its highly prided digital infrastructure
ponector 6 hours ago [-]
Military personnel use the same Yandex services as regular people: delivery, maps, taxi, etc.
Also Yandex is a large cloud provider, they host a lot of government-connected companies.
andy_ppp 6 hours ago [-]
Also Russia has been targeting Ukrainian digital infrastructure so they make these things fair game IMO.
youngtaff 5 hours ago [-]
Russia is hitting everything in Ukraine… DC, power plants, rail, road housing
Ukraine has a very targeted response but notably tries to minimise civilian casualties
fartfeatures 6 hours ago [-]
I don't have specific information about Yandex but don't forget how heavily involved Amazon were with things like: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/19/world/europe/ukraine-cybe... it wouldn't be a huge stretch to suggest that a lot of cloud hosting providers are neck deep in national security.
crabbone 5 hours ago [-]
This is a... mischaracterization.
The reason why Ukraine, Russia and Iran are targeting data-centers is because they are easy targets with a lot of expensive equipment, but they don't really impact the military operation. So, they aren't high priority targets. Bomber airplanes, air defenses, launchers for ballistic missiles, command centers, factories manufacturing strategic military equipment, telecommunications, energy infrastructure would be the examples of high priority targets. The data-centers are more of a "we have excess drones, why not use them?"
I find it hard to believe that the military will intentionally use civilian data-centers for its own purposes. At least, not for the core of its operations (for auxiliary functionality: maybe). Military data-centers are likely to be in protected locations, perhaps using different h/w that addresses the cooling problem.
Also, it's a bit myopic to think that AI is having such a universal and large impact on society. Jobs that provide essential goods and services are, by and large, unaffected by AI. Farmers, construction workers, cooks etc. don't really use any of the AI stuff on the day to day basis, if at all.
scotty79 3 hours ago [-]
Those data centers participate hugely in generating of internet misinformation and propaganda that shapes deterioration of support in European populations. Those are valid military targets.
bob1029 6 hours ago [-]
Let's not forget about the orbital data center idea.
Perhaps an economic justification can be found for placing something so far up the gravity well that its adversaries can no longer physically approach it. Distributing the resource across many satellites would further confound any attack.
Increasing the cost of effect on a single target from $1,000 to $1,000,000,000 makes a difference. Especially when that 2nd option is likely to trigger additional multilateral strategic responses. If the only way to delete your adversaries data centers is with things like nuclear weapons, lasers and multi-stage rocketry, your adversary may have already won the game.
Gigachad 5 hours ago [-]
Until someone blows up a satellite and creates enough shrapnel that every other satellite is destroyed.
ben_w 5 hours ago [-]
Ground to orbit antisat lasers are already plausibly something various militaries have.
Welding lasers are pretty cheap, the two hard parts are a big enough apperture to focus 500 km away, and adaptive optics, both of which have already been demonstrated decades ago in astronomy.
I'm not saying Iran and North Korea already have such capabilities, but I am saying I think neither would have trouble building it six months ago if they'd wanted to.
microtonal 5 hours ago [-]
Except that doing this at scale is currently still a pipe dream. Space is a near-vacuum, so it's hard to get rid of the heat.
The active thermal control system (ATCS) on the ISS uses an ammonia loop and radiators measuring 13.6 x 3.12 meters, or about 42.5 square meters. It can dissipate 16 kW, which is enough for 16 H200s, or one-quarter of a rack on Earth. For 200 kW, you would need a system 12.5 times larger, about 531 square meters—2.6 times larger than the solar array. The satellite would be enormous, larger than the ISS, and all of that for only three racks.
> For 200 kW, you would need a system 12.5 times larger, about 531 square meters—2.6 times larger than the solar array. The satellite would be enormous, larger than the ISS, and all of that for only three racks.
Starlink gen 3 satellite is designed to dissipate 250 kW. You are talking about an already solved issue, with real hardware already being built today.
bob1029 5 hours ago [-]
Are you asserting that we must use the exact same heat rejection architecture the ISS uses for data centers?
The problem of the $ per kg to launch huge radiators and "orbital datacenter" type stuff of satellites into space doesn't seem to be resolving itself any time soon. Even if we hand wave away and say that 5 years from now the starship will be such a spectacular success than it costs only $200 per kg to send stuff into space (drastically lower than what it costs now), it would still be vastly less expensive to build a terrestrial solar datacenter in the middle of the southern Libyan desert than it would be to do the same amount of compute in space.
Marha01 5 hours ago [-]
> it would still be vastly less expensive to build a terrestrial solar datacenter in the middle of the southern Libyan desert than it would be to do the same amount of compute in space.
Perhaps, but the parent comment posited that some people would pay the premium for orbital data center due to much better security. At $200 per kg to orbit, it could make sense.
fragmede 56 minutes ago [-]
With the caveat that Libya, being located upon Earth, is affected by solar power not working at night or when it's cloudy, and is also subject to being in Libya, which is a country with bureaucrats that are going to subject anything built in the country to their laws.
evgen 5 hours ago [-]
So the "some day in the future" orbiting data centers proposed by a known fraudster will use an experimental-at-best radiator technology that has never been tested in flight yet? That tracks.
Marha01 5 hours ago [-]
Orbital data center constellations are also studied by Google, the idea is not just from Elon.
Marha01 5 hours ago [-]
> Space is a near-vacuum, so it's hard to get rid of the heat.
It's not that hard, Starlink constellation already dissipates around 100 MW of heat, split over many satellites. Any orbital datacenter would use similarly distributed satellites.
usrnm 6 hours ago [-]
From a purely engineering perspective, this and the destroyed AWS datacenters in the Middle East show an interesting trend. How will it affect the way future datacenters and services hosted in them are built? Will we see a rise in decentralized systems and much larger networks of smaller DCs?
swiftcoder 5 hours ago [-]
> Will we see a rise in decentralized systems and much larger networks of smaller DCs?
Or will we see civilian datacenters with their own defensive drone swarms, and a couple of phalanx-style point defence systems for good measure?
yablak 6 hours ago [-]
No, just more underground construction
yard2010 6 hours ago [-]
And sky rocketing (...) prices
Gigachad 6 hours ago [-]
It would be cheaper for most businesses to just go on prem again.
wiether 5 hours ago [-]
RTO also for the servers?
pu_pe 5 hours ago [-]
This should have a material impact on SpaceX stock. Wouldn't it be much easier to harden datacenters against attack under ground than in space?
fch42 2 hours ago [-]
To merely destroy "space data centers", you need not have very advanced targeting technology nor space lasers or whatnot. Just launch a few things releasing little ball bearings or steel needles or something like that - and "poison" the entire orbit.
If all you seek is to destroy (how en-vogue...) then that's more than perfect; not just destroy what's there but also make sure that by virtue of what remains (debris) nothing will get re-built.
spiderfarmer 15 minutes ago [-]
A single EMP would be enough without causing excessive space debris. It's not like someone will simply fly in and swap some hardware.
fch42 1 minutes ago [-]
Well ... first, that needs a "gadget" suitable for creating an EMP - which is still higher-rate tech than a missile being able to just reach a few hundred miles
altitude and then "conventionally blow up into tiny pieces". And second ... as I said, as belligerant or terrorist, why would you not want to destroy / orbit-poison ? Why would it ever be a good idea to "destruction-less disable" space infrastructure?
adventured 3 hours ago [-]
The SpaceX stock is floating solely (and temporarily) on fairy dust, it will not have any impact on the stock what-so-ever.
As the market goes, so goes the multiple being granted to SPCX. That is, when the AI bubble contracts on the multiples being granted, SPCX will decline dramatically. In my observation HN typically widely can't differentiate properly between the real AI economy being developed and the multiples being temporarily granted in the stock market, it's common on here that people think they're the same thing ('when the AI bubble ends'). Back in reality what is going to happen is an implosion of the multiples when the growth slows (or suddenly stops due to an economic shock), and despite that the AI economy broadly will radically expand regardless over 10, 20, 30 years. See: the Internet build out (and market valuations), it will occur much the same conceptually.
kolinko 2 hours ago [-]
SpaceX has a de facto monopoly on space now. And they are 10-20 years ahead of even China. No nation now has a response to Falcon 9 - sth SpaceX built over 10 years ago.
childintime 5 hours ago [-]
It will mean data-centers move to space and then Musk will use his space prowess to bring weapons into space, in collaboration with the US military, and deny/strong-arm/corrupt governments around the world to protect his treasure, including the US government. He'll have a robot army to back it up.
He is on his way to become the first ($100 trillion) supervillain. Until 2 years ago, he stood at the center of most of the good news, then he got a few calls from Putin and he became unhinged from our (obscured) point of view. Nowadays he's a dark pattern.
Capitalism culminates in him, and he has to decide what to make of the world. He is our de-facto king, while on a personal level he has to decide what to do with his fortune. Put it into smart contracts for an AI to use and rule the world? Giving it to his kids would be underwhelming, not what he lived for.
People joked that mankind existed to bring forth the machines and would then become superfluous. The irony of it. Well, it seems irony has mr Musk. He sees the petty online bickering and he sees himself as alone, as the only adult in the room, who has to decide the fate of humanity, and his power in many domains puts him to the task.
He has his fiduciary responsibility that puts the interests of his share-holders first. He sees that as a healthy check on his power. At the end of all his calculations he has responsibilities akin to the Star Wars Emperor. Just like many white men, who come spend the remainder of their days in function and in defense of their property. Not in defense of life.
So Musk needs his antagonist to arrive on the scene, so he can repurpose his empire for the good the antagonist brings, as he represents a complete overhaul of the way life is lived. So the jury is out on mr Musk, and may he always remember his status as an American is just a hustle gone wild. Similar to the dynamic of how a liar has to keep extending his web of lies. He will make it into a machine that will carry his burden going forward. And then what? When, if ever, will he remember he is an African, and a friend of his own antagonist? His final words may sound like: Luke, I am your Father!
TheOtherHobbes 5 hours ago [-]
Data centres will not be moving to space. The physics and economics don't work.
It's not that it can't be done at all, but heat dissipation at scale in space is an insane engineering challenge, the tech to make giant radiators work doesn't exist yet, and even if it did it would extremely costly to develop and deploy.
Musk is a textbook narcissist. His consistent pattern is to make grandiose promises - literal future faking - fulfil a small percentage of them, then make even bigger and more grandiose promises and hope investors have a short memory. (They do.)
As a narcissist his primary relationship orientation is contempt for others. He's more interested in damaging projects he doesn't like - like the left-leaning community on the original Twitter, using promises of Hyperloop to kill high speed rail, ignoring the CSA from Grok, and of course the USAid fiasco - than seeing through the projects he claims to be developing to completion.
He fits in perfectly with Thiel, Altman, and the rest. The tech is sometimes interesting, but the alignment is fundamentally hostile to the rest of humanity.
ben_w 4 hours ago [-]
> but heat dissipation at scale in space is an insane engineering challenge, the tech to make giant radiators work doesn't exist yet, and even if it did it would extremely costly to develop and deploy
Different problem.
Cooling can be done in space, it's a normal problem; not easy, nothing in space is easy, but on the scale of space it is normal.
However, at the temperature you would run a chip at, a radiator you make for space will just work better, reject more heat, if you leave it on the ground.
We get convective cooling down here as well as radiative. At operational temperature, convection more than makes up for the atmosphere being a heat bath at ~20 C or whatever.
spiderfarmer 12 minutes ago [-]
Everything is possible. Doesn't mean you should do it. You can also put datacenters on the sea floor in a nuclear submarine. That might be even easier.
But does it make sense to do it?
No.
Marha01 4 hours ago [-]
> t's not that it can't be done at all, but heat dissipation at scale in space is an insane engineering challenge, the tech to make giant radiators work doesn't exist yet, and even if it did it would extremely costly to develop and deploy.
You are overstating the engineering difficulty. Starlink constellation already dissipates around 100MW.
fch42 1 hours ago [-]
If you solve your cooling problem in space by distributing 10000 servers across 100 orbits then you replace one engineering challenge with the next; good luck with the satellite-satellite optical crossbars, and even more with the time travel beam shapers to get the communication latency between the components of your "orbit-distributed data center" to-target.
(the sarcasm is intended; there are some usecases for "space servers", around stealth for sure; to "scale it like a terrestrial DC" though ... dunno; not matter how I turn it, it just seems crazy expensive)
Marha01 39 minutes ago [-]
Communication latency and bandwidth would present big issues for AI satellites used for training. But if they are inference-only, then the latency and bandwidth demands are much, much lower. Starlink already demonstrates the required parameters.
fch42 8 minutes ago [-]
Indeed ... yet the servers for that already exist and are largely ground-based - "edge" compute of the large CDNs through which much of the internet's traffic flows anyway.
Will starlink build its own edge ? Maybe. We'll see. Whether it makes sense to have this infrastructure "colocated in space" if you're not also the owner of the "connection infrastructure in space" though? It'll come down to cost.
If I were anyone else but SpaceX ... that's where my eyes would be.
ben_w 5 hours ago [-]
In 2016, Musk was forecasting no-asterisk-needed cross country self driving and Mars launches within two years.
He may have been a wrong'un before that, but he was definitely already doing a confidence trick by that point.
r721 4 hours ago [-]
BBC story linked to this chart which is pretty interesting:
So three important data centers strategically chosen to be destroyed? As far as i know such an loss couldn't even Google compensate, let alone Yandex. This could severely impact their economy for months.
motionlessveloc 2 hours ago [-]
Google states they have 30 locations around the world. Losing three would be painful but not fatal.
data centers are civilian targets and globally very poorly defended. if this starts to escalate.. you think ram is expensive now..
tuwtuwtuwtuw 6 hours ago [-]
They are often dual-use targets today.
Example quote from Azure documentation:
> Azure Government is used by the US Department of Defense (DoD) entities to deploy a broad range of workloads and solutions.
Calling such a DC a civilian target is essentialy incorrect now, and has been for years.
derektank 5 hours ago [-]
Lots of civilian government agencies also use Azure for government / AWS GovCloud data centers because they’re FedRAMP compliant. It’s not just the DoD.
tuwtuwtuwtuw 4 hours ago [-]
Yes, that's why I wrote dual-use.
bvcp 5 hours ago [-]
i think you miss interpreted, they are poorly defended because they are civilian, meaning globally data centers are universally undefended from military action. meaning this sort of action can spiral out of control very fast. and would have major global economic adverse effects.
its also important to understand that government isnt non civilian, in this context its non military
tuwtuwtuwtuw 4 hours ago [-]
Direct attacks on civilian infrastructure can be war crimes. Data centers that host military workloads are not civilian targets.
I didn't misinterpret, you are using incorrect terminology.
preisschild 2 hours ago [-]
Especially on civilian infrastructure like dams that will kill many civilians if they fail, which russia has done
Everything in Russia depends on Yandex. The impact on both businesses and daily life is massive. You can’t order a taxi or food delivery in most parts of Russia now. Retail chains POS systems in stores and payment systems are down too. Russians on threads and Twitter are complaining they can’t even buy things in stores. Of course, Putin himself doesn’t understand the impact because he barely knows how to use a computer and never uses the Internet.
Imbryk 3 hours ago [-]
Finally good news from Russia!
sedan_baklazhan 3 hours ago [-]
Guess it’s just a matter of “when” most datacenters on the MiddleEast will be hit.
addedGone 2 hours ago [-]
can't image the chaos currently due to mass data migration, many businesses must be freaking out.
sammy2255 6 hours ago [-]
They should start putting data centers underground like deep under central park
jeff_vader 4 hours ago [-]
Is Kagi search still (partially?) relying on Yandex?
surfingdino 6 hours ago [-]
Looks like Yandex is going to be taken over by the state for not investing in air defences. (There is a new law in russia that specifically allows confiscation of businesses that do not invest in air defenses.)
5 hours ago [-]
pi-victor 6 hours ago [-]
tough luck
walrus01 6 hours ago [-]
I was going to use Yandex search for find an extremely tiny violin to play, but the yandex search is broken. Oh well.
b0rys 6 hours ago [-]
Massive data/compute centers should be replace to lot of mini data/compute centers in our homes.
Hey, it's you again :) I think that map features quite prominently on a wall in your home country somewhere with little red 'x' marks on a couple of places. May there soon be many more.
LoganDark 6 hours ago [-]
The communication from Yandex regarding these incidents seems very refreshing compared to what we usually see from big tech. They seem very realistic about what customers should expect and what measures they should take. I wish this were more common these days.
ponector 6 hours ago [-]
Refreshing is also a wording. Drone attack during the war is called "an incident".
LoganDark 3 hours ago [-]
The news itself is not so refreshing, I just appreciate the level of transparency and honesty here.
5 hours ago [-]
NautilusTheBot 6 hours ago [-]
But how on earth are they able to penetrate through all their defensives
squidbeak 5 hours ago [-]
Several reasons.
First, a long-running SEAD / DEAD campaign by Ukraine last year and early this which thinned Russian air defence throughout occupied territories and left Russia with difficult deployment decisions for what remained.
Second, improvements to drones (speed and EW resistance) and expanded production - meaning the air defence can be saturated.
Third, Russia's vast geography itself, leaving countless approaches to targets impossible to defend.
flohofwoe 5 hours ago [-]
"What air defense doing?" is apparently still an unsolved riddle.
Marha01 5 hours ago [-]
Masses of drones. Some get shot down, but not all.
badpun 17 minutes ago [-]
The are largely concentrated around Moscow to defend the "brain" of the country, as well as personally Putin himself.
cbg0 6 hours ago [-]
Bold of you to assume they have many defenses left.
233mhz 5 hours ago [-]
Their lines of 50+ years old junk which have been rotting for decades because of corruption and are operated by low iq conscripts with no training?
A mystery really...
tokai 5 hours ago [-]
Russian air defence equipment bad, organised even worse, and has been severely degraded over 4 years now.
walrus01 5 hours ago [-]
It also seems like a bit of a game of whack-a-mole. UA put logistics/distribution centers under threat (wildberries) and refineries under threat, so the Russians moved their scarce air defense resources around on the map in an attempt to cover those, but oops, that left little or nothing covering the yandex datacenters and similar. There's not enough to go around to cover all of the possible geographically distributed pain points in the economy.
defly 4 hours ago [-]
Saturation
oezi 3 hours ago [-]
I wonder what's the impact on the Russian disinformation campaigns?
Can we use it to judge which accounts were bots?
jacquesm 48 minutes ago [-]
Plenty of the bots are real people, even if their behavior is hard to distinguish from bots. HN has plenty of them so you can see it right here, just check for the green accounts made just for this thread alone to give you an idea how bad it is.
dainiusse 5 hours ago [-]
Is it yandex ir nebius?:)
nixass 25 minutes ago [-]
I bet Slack channels in Nebius are on fire these days, but also they managed to make even more money.
Entire upper management and all key positions in Nebius are held by ex Yandex-es. I wonder what is going through their heads now
5 hours ago [-]
logicchains 6 hours ago [-]
What's an alternative way to find torrents if Yandex goes down?
Watch as all the good patriotic soccer mom bots with AI generated midwestern white lady profile photos disappear from X and similar social media all suspiciously at the same time.
Both of them are search engines; web page crawling is what they do;
What did you expect?
23 minutes ago [-]
petu 6 hours ago [-]
I'm reading schleck8 comment as accusing Yandex ASN as malicious on grounds of having higher bot % traffic than Scaleway / comparably sized Cloud Provider.
It could be malicious, but that exact stat doesn't show that.
Implication was that tons of malicious traffic originate from there. I pointed out that bot % stat doesn't seem to be useful for determining that, Occam's razor and all.
troupo 6 hours ago [-]
And bot traffic from Yandex is down 100% as of this moment according to the graphs.
People on X comment on the noticeable drop in bot comments.
ponector 6 hours ago [-]
Agree: not great not terrible.
Great will be when all huge data center are visited by free range unknown drones, like what happened to the Wildberries.
aswegs8 6 hours ago [-]
It's in Russia, that's why.
rwyinuse 6 hours ago [-]
It's just karma, Russians fascists reaping what they sow.
decremental 6 hours ago [-]
[dead]
hoholrapist 6 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
hoholrapist 6 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
Muromec 6 hours ago [-]
Exhibit A for russian culture: racial slurs, death threats, mentions of rape in the username.
JumpCrisscross 5 hours ago [-]
It really is kind of funny how the crazies, when left alone with themselves too long, turn into their own best counterprogramming.
robinduckett 6 hours ago [-]
“That country over there is full of Nazis!” That does explain why they want in so bad then, doesn’t it.
Muromec 6 hours ago [-]
Such a tragic miscommunication. Could have asked to be invited to the jew-nazi-homo party and got a welcoming vodka shot at the door. That however require free will, which is in a short supply over there.
hoholrapist 6 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
Muromec 6 hours ago [-]
Can you speak a bit more clearly? Something muffles the sounds.
hoholrapist1 6 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
KingOfCoders 6 hours ago [-]
How much does Vlad pay today for such a comment? Is it worth it?
hoholrapist 6 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
solarwinds 6 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
oytis 6 hours ago [-]
They could have even more moral superiority by giving up, but moral superiority is not the goal
make3 6 hours ago [-]
People are allowed to defend themselves man. In this case, economic pressure is the only thing that's likely to work medium term.
6 hours ago [-]
flexagoon 6 hours ago [-]
It isn't. It doesn't affect Yandex's own services, but ruins thousands of businesses and projects hosted there. Even if you hate Amazon or Google, you probably wouldn't want AWS or Google Cloud datacenters destroyed by Iran, because that would just affect innocent users.
walrus01 6 hours ago [-]
Any remaining foreign companies doing business domestically in Russia (that thought they needed to host things in a Yandex datacenter) should be completely unsurprised by this result. As for the domestic Russians, there's a magical solution, when every square cm of Ukrainian territory is back in the hands of the UA forces, and the Russians have withdrawn back across the border, the strikes on datacenters will stop.
KingOfCoders 6 hours ago [-]
"Russians have withdrawn back across the border, the strikes on datacenters will stop."
I'm also surprised that people can't see this simple solution to the situation.
TrickyRick 4 hours ago [-]
The Kremlin hates this one simple trick
orphereus 6 hours ago [-]
I did not expect Russian shills on Hackernews.
Destroying heating units in Ukraine also affects innocent users in much worse ways than losing a datacenter.
jacquesm 43 minutes ago [-]
There are plenty of them, unfortunately.
TiredOfLife 5 hours ago [-]
They have been here for years. Majority of them are the Russians that live and work outside Russia
flexagoon 6 hours ago [-]
I am not a Russian shill. I fully support Ukraine and do not support the Russian war crimes. This doesn't help stop them, it just harms random people who happen to live in a war criminal dictatorship.
KingOfCoders 6 hours ago [-]
"harms random people who happen to live in a war criminal dictatorship."
The vast majority of Russians loved the war mostly because they made lots of money from it. Just when Ukraine started hitting oil infra people no longer liked the war. I am sorry for those 10% of Russians who didn't want the war and can't move abroad.
flexagoon 6 hours ago [-]
Where is 10% coming from?
20% of Russians were ready to vote for an anti-war party in the last elections before it was illegally removed from the ballots, and many more don't support the war. The people who do are mostly old or live in small towns with no access to education. I doubt many of them are Yandex Cloud users.
KingOfCoders 6 hours ago [-]
Surveys on the approval of Putin and the invasion of Ukraine in 2014 showed numbers between 80% - 90% of people approving the war.
I assume - one would need to check - that the majority of people who left Russia after 2022 did not support the war, so those left should be on the lower end.
"20% of Russians were ready to vote for an anti-war party in the last elections"
Yes, as I've said, approval dropped when Ukraine hit oil infra and gas prices went up, I can see 20% as a number. Nevertheless as show by approval ratings after 2014, that number was lower until people got hit by the impact of the war themselves.
paaloeye 6 hours ago [-]
Sounds accurate!
trallnag 6 hours ago [-]
How did they make money from the war? The war is a huge burden on the Russian economy
KingOfCoders 6 hours ago [-]
Families of people who signed up for the war got large amounts of money. The transfer of money from the Russian national wealth fund into the economy, together with the shortage of workers, increased salaries.
[Edit] People didn't keep that money but spent it so others profited from that money too.
This is what happens in wars - beside war racketeers - salaries go up. There is a lot of research on how German profited from WW2 (and before) for example for most of the war. WW2 too seems most researched from what I see on how everyone profits until things get worse and end.
walterlw 4 hours ago [-]
a "war chest" is usually saved by the state (by under-investing into everything civilian) and then given back to the working-class population as salaries, sign-up bonuses, investment into logistic infrastructure.
If you look up the stats - there was a real-estate boom in the early years of the was as many families could finally take a mortgage. Now many cannot pay for it because the bonuses and soldier salaries "don't last" hence companies like "Samolyot" are now in trouble.
oytis 6 hours ago [-]
You understand that a country's military capacity depends on its economy right?
flexagoon 6 hours ago [-]
Putin is a psychopath who doesn't care about anything. He gets money for the war anywhere he can. If 99% of the Russian economy gets destroyed, he'd redirect the remaining 1% to fully fund the war.
Marha01 5 hours ago [-]
> If 99% of the Russian economy gets destroyed, he'd redirect the remaining 1% to fully fund the war.
This is impossible, even in a dictatorship.
walrus01 5 hours ago [-]
I do wonder about the internal mental calculus of a Putin-like dictator, essentially, "how far can I push this before I end up like Ceaușescu or Mussolini?". Not anywhere near as far as an actual 99%, I think.
The starvation years of the DPRK in the mid 1990s directly after the collapse of the Soviet Union might be the closest that such a state has come to the situation getting so dire that the people could have theoretically risen up, no matter the consequences, but for a myriad of reasons the North Koreans were unable to.
rcxdude 6 hours ago [-]
Putin does not have absolute power entirely on his own (no dictator truly does). He can only continue with what he is doing because the Russian population on average either actively supports him or is not working against him.
walrus01 6 hours ago [-]
If literally 99% of the Russian economy was destroyed, no matter how currently oppressed they presently are, the Russian people are likely to rise up and remove Putin. It'll be bloody as all hell but if the economy were to truly and completely collapse (let's say, all refineries were severely hit and taken out of commission for months), it would happen.
ponector 5 hours ago [-]
Same millions of random people who eager to enlist, travel thouthands kilometers and die in a ditch in Ukraine in exchange for some extra cash.
Same random people who works and support military machine with money and labor.
rcxdude 6 hours ago [-]
One important part of the war is to break up the 'deal' Putin has with the Russian population where he can stay in power and do what he likes so long as he doesn't mess with their lives too much. It's important that the everyday Russian is woken up to the realities of the war because it's ultimately them that will be stopping it, one way or another.
sfn42 6 hours ago [-]
As far as I'm concerned, Ukraine can do no wrong in this conflict (within reason obviously). Russia has been hitting civilian targets, specifically trying to take civilian lives, since day one.
The more damage Ukraine does to them the better. Maybe then these Russians who allegedly don't like Putin will get their shit together and do something about him. He's their responsibility. They are, like it or not, supporting his war simply by existing in the Russian economy. If the entire country really wanted him gone they could get him gone.
Mikhail_Edoshin 5 hours ago [-]
“That is thy loss. A small crack might let in some wisdom.”
jazzyjackson 6 hours ago [-]
You don’t suppose it harms the billionaire oligarch shareholders more than the pizza shop that happens to run a website?
jacquesm 38 minutes ago [-]
Not having access to your pizza shop's website still beats having your restaurant bombed while you are there for take-out.
The billionaire tech oligarchs are owners of other Russian big tech, and they all have their own data centers. Some of them also have their own cloud services, so if anything this just redirects the money to them from Yandex Cloud.
stephbook 6 hours ago [-]
> Even if you hate Amazon or Google, you probably wouldn't want AWS or Google Cloud datacenters destroyed by Iran, because that would just affect innocent users.
Interesting take. Last I checked, those datacenters hosted software that targeted a children's school.
KingOfCoders 6 hours ago [-]
Innocent users who voted for killing tens of thousands of civilians in Ukraine.
I guess for some definition of "innocent".
choo-t 6 hours ago [-]
How do you know how they voted ?
By this logic there not a single innocent in the United States or Israel either.
tokai 5 hours ago [-]
You people keep thinking this kind of reasoning is some kind of gotcha. It really isn't. All citizens of the US carry responsibility for the crimes you did over the last half century.
choo-t 46 minutes ago [-]
Lot of them are responsible, not all.
Children and anti-state/anti-military-industrial-complex seem hardly responsible for example, even if most of them still profit from what the U.S.A have done in a way.
5 hours ago [-]
jrflowers 6 hours ago [-]
Oh no
KingOfCoders 5 hours ago [-]
80% - 90% of Russians approved the invasion of Ukraine in 2014 according to different pollsters. The assumption is they voted accordingly to make the second wave of the invasion in 2022 possible.
If - I assume there is - there is a post shared on HN about Israel and Gaza we can discuss that genocide there.
i_have_an_idea 6 hours ago [-]
Those aren’t real elections.
flexagoon 6 hours ago [-]
What about the innocent users who didn't? Russia is not a democracy.
robinduckett 6 hours ago [-]
There are a lot of them and not many of the dictators and his cronies. They could all do an uprising. It’s funny that a country with so much history of rebellion have leaders who have become so complacent
KingOfCoders 6 hours ago [-]
I'm sorry for those of the 11 percent innocent (1) that are left there, happy that many fled the dictatorship.
(1) 89% of Russians approved Putin and the 2014 Crimean invasion
flexagoon 6 hours ago [-]
> 89% of Russians approved Putin
According to Putin.
KingOfCoders 6 hours ago [-]
No according to different pollsters.
Lewada, the pollster which got sacked later as a "foreign agent", got 86%
petre 5 hours ago [-]
86, 89 what's the difference? Putin is running a fascist elderly home at this point. Younger people in Russia won't be able to buy gas or hail a ride now.
jacquesm 36 minutes ago [-]
That's terrible. Meanwhile, in Ukraine they bombed another shopping center.
See the difference? Dual use / military goals vs mass murdering civilians.
pennaMan 6 hours ago [-]
seems like Russia has achieved the paradoxical form of government where it is both a perfect direct democracy and a fascist dictatorship
simion314 6 hours ago [-]
You know the Zeds attacked Ukrainian internet providers , attacked hospitals, train stations etc , do Zeds really expect that that Ukrainians are less capable than Ruzzians of doing the same? Or the Zeds are surprised that the decadent West is not forcing Ukraine to be kind and gentle with the "innocents" in Moscow, those poor Moscowites can't good when the AA is firing and now they might not have access to memes and videos either.
flexagoon 6 hours ago [-]
I don't blame Ukraine for doing this. I understand it fully. Russia invades and attacks them, they defend and attack back. That's what war is. But I don't understand the people on HN saying this attack is somehow "good" for anyone.
darkwi11ow 5 hours ago [-]
The tech sector in russia was fully centralized and monopolized prior to war. Destruction of the monopolies infrastructure (i hope sberbank, mailru, vk and the rest will be followed upon) will force russians to rebuild their tech sector in a healthy competitive way once the war is over. Treat drones as reactive anti-trust measures.
sfn42 5 hours ago [-]
It's good because it's a victory for Ukraine. They thought it was worth spending resources on this so clearly they think it's good for them too.
asimpletune 5 hours ago [-]
The purpose of the strikes is to increase the cost to continue the war. You said in another comment that Putin is a psychopath who will always find a way to more money, but what you have not considered is that at a certain point this will become more and more difficult. Resources are finite. It’s the proverbial immovable object vs irresistible force, except without the poetic license: at some point, it will be clear that either immovable and/or irresistible are just words, and that underlying them is a reality that is not just words but made of a finite amount of will, manpower, and firepower. It’s too early to say the war will go one way or another - and it’s a big mistake to underestimate Russia - but to answer your question, the attack is “good” because that’s how you fight a war. Most of the world wants Russia to lose and therefore it is good, for us. Us is someone, just like for some Z people out there it’s good when Russia destroys a hospital, school, Ukrainian print shop, etc… bc terrorism is part of their strategy. We will see what happens.
simion314 5 hours ago [-]
It is good if for example your country is invaded by rubots, like in Romanian election, you got Ruzzian bot famrs involved in promoting candidates agaisnt the election laws. I mean you get a candidate getting 50k likes from accounts in Asia a few seoncs after posintg soem video in Tik tok , it is obvious it was fake content and it was linked to Ruzzian citizens bot farms.
I hope that Putin will not attack again the electricity and power in Ukraine , hopefully the retard is scared now that Ukraine will bring the cold to the Moscowites and I am not happy for the children in Moscow to suffer because of the adults not giving a shit about the criminal they elected.
realusername 6 hours ago [-]
Russia's economy was always much less diversified than any western country even before the war but now what is even left as legitimate businesses nowadays? It's just the war machine and income to fund it, mainly from raw materials.
And I'm sure these data centers were also used for military purposes, no way they weren't in the current russian environment.
robinduckett 6 hours ago [-]
Incorrect, and the mental gymnastics at play here is rather telling
sehw 6 hours ago [-]
>you probably wouldn't want AWS or Google Cloud datacenters destroyed by Iran
Huh?
victorbjorklund 5 hours ago [-]
Nice.
ulfw 1 hours ago [-]
Good
sehw 6 hours ago [-]
Yandex is the best search engine for stuff banned by the "rotten wect" btw. F Google
robinduckett 6 hours ago [-]
While I appreciate the sentiment, the decline of American/Western companies into modern Puritanism is nothing new - but considering the staunch conservatism of the average Russian, I’d say they would do the same thing if they could, they just don’t have the engineering capacity to do the same thing.
snowpid 26 minutes ago [-]
American companies and not "Western". American companies have very puritarian rules compared to European cultures.
mittensc 6 hours ago [-]
not for long
troupo 6 hours ago [-]
Roskomnadzor are laughing their asses off reading this comment.
5 hours ago [-]
edg5000 5 hours ago [-]
Yandex is pretty good search engine. It has zero censorship. Just the raw internet. Sometimes it more than I've bargained for but as a user I'm happy the option exists.
The severity of the attacks on Russian borders have I believe still a limited effect on the course of the war, but I suppose it certainly won't hurt Ukraine's chances to in some form survive this war.
vardump 4 hours ago [-]
Zero censorship? Who do you think you are kidding?
znnajdla 4 hours ago [-]
The real question is will the Russian government survive their disastrous war in some form? 50% of Russia's oil infrastructure and refining capacity has been taken out in the last six months. Do you think Russia will be able to survive that? Disruption of Russian critical infrastructure routes are getting worse by the day. In the border regions you can't even get a truck driver to agree to move a load for $10,000 across some of the highways of Russia that supply Crimea. Ukraine is doing more than just surviving. It is beating Russia.
RuslanL 10 minutes ago [-]
> 50% of Russia's oil infrastructure and refining capacity has been taken out
No, it has been merely hit (usually once) and typically repaired in the span of a few days. The whole "double-digits percents have been destroyed" typically comes from not so high quality news agencies. Some things were destroyed more thoroughly, but their margin is largely negligible.
orf 5 hours ago [-]
> It has zero censorship
My dude, it’s one of the most heavily censored search engines on earth
scotty79 3 hours ago [-]
I think it entirely depends of what censorship you care about. If political censorship is irrelevant to you and puritanistic and copyright censorship is what's in you way then western search engines are more heavily censored.
defly 4 hours ago [-]
Zero censorship???
thinker34 6 hours ago [-]
Everything is fair in love and war. Unless the war stops, they can completely destroy each other.
The general decency of condemning any/all types destruction won't apply here.
neuroticnews25 6 hours ago [-]
This sounds like you're equating the defender's right to counterattack with the attacker's right to continue the attack?
233mhz 5 hours ago [-]
Words are cheap and don't end wars, we can condem all day long it won't change a thing. Fuck russia
Rendered at 14:25:56 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
For the entire September, Russia conducted 10+ strikes on all key telecom, and internet provider data centers in Ukraine.
Now it is just a return
Russia went all in on "digital sovereignty." This is partly because the Russian government cares deeply about censoring what their citizens can see (which they can't do if those citizens consume content from American services), partly because the American services themselves cut Russia off because of sanctions-related concerns.
This makes Russian datacenters a much more attractive target for the Ukrainians. While Russia can (and does) bomb Ukrainian datacenters, the fact that Ukrainians are so reliant on US infrastructure (and could rapidly move local workloads to western clouds if the need was great enough) makes such operations far less attractive. It's much easier for Ukraine to strike some facility near Moscow than it is for Russia to strike Ashburn, Virginia.
Given the geopolitical concerns from both the east and the west, this makes the question of whether Europe should move content off of US infrastructure a lot more complicated.
Ever heard of Game Theory?
Trump sucks at it. And by the looks of it, you're not very good either.
And again this isn't even about ethics. In normal situations targeting civilian infrastructure doesn't even make sense. When you blow up e.g. an Amazon warehouse or whatever, those are weapons that could typically have been put to far better use targeting the enemy or the sources supplying them. Instead all it does incite reciprocal responses and has sent this war into its most horrific phase, by far.
Complete bullshit, Russia has been targeting civilian infrastructure from the very beginning. The only thing that changed is that Ukraine is now running out of advanced air defense, so that more of the attacks are getting through.
All I'm seeing is two sides continuing to escalate and respond to each other while the rest of the world watches.
> Wildberries (essentially Russia's Amazon)
And military supplier newly owned by Putin's buddy! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_strikes_on_Wildberri...
Come Back Alive - delivered the first deep-strike drones https://savelife.in.ua/en/
Serhiy Prytula Charity Foundation - bought the famous spy satellite https://prytulafoundation.org/en
KOLO Charity Foundation - run by the Ukrainian tech community https://www.koloua.com/en/
Razom - US-based foundation https://www.razomforukraine.org/donate/
Canada-Ukraine Foundation - Canadian NGO, organizes winter aid for civilians https://www.cufoundation.ca/
Ukrainian World Congress https://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/
Exen - Polish volunteer who delivers used vehicles to the front https://pomagam.pl/4x4dlaukrainy
United24 - the government fund https://u24.gov.ua/
Blue/Yellow - Lithuanian NGO supplying the Ukrainian military https://blue-yellow.lt/en/
Stopify - Latvian initiative, donations collected via Ziedot.lv https://stopify.org.ua/
Weapons to Ukraine - Czech initiative https://weaponstoukraine.com/en
Help99 - from Estonia's LIFT99 startup hub, convoys refitted trucks and drones to the front https://www.help99.co/donate
Aktion Deutschland Hilft - German humanitarian aid https://www.aktion-deutschland-hilft.de/
Thanks to everyone who suggested additions. Please keep adding foundations from your country in the comments.
Including KOLO dispersing medical equipment that I donated, and I can vouch that they are effective and very efficient.
Since the very start, they already raised over €121 million.
And this group: https://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/
Also, Czech initiative https://weaponstoukraine.com/en and 69th Sniffing Brigade https://www.help99.co/donate is doing awesome work.
Glory to the Heroes!
inb4: yes, I'm too scared to do it myself, thanks for asking, the person in the mirror reminds me of that every day.
at this point the article 5 could be in circulation even without Ukraine being mentioned..
Irenology is the real cure for all of this though. political action or inaction will never bring, build, foster or protect peace because it is all rooted in polemology.
Otherwise it’s just going to war.
So they can deny everything and play the victim.
They know the NATO countries won’t call article 5 for that.
And that benefits Russia
Edit: thanks for answers, this helps.
FWIW, thank you for making this choice.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_emigration_during_the_...
(This is incomplete, I think there is a fourth or a fifth wave, probably since about summer 2026.)
The Soviet Union arguably had some of world's finest engineering talent, but many of those most skilled left as soon as they could. Some of these, or their children, would go on to found startups.
This war won't be over until the Russian army starts conscription in Moscow. The Czar will happily empty out the villages in Siberia and the Caucasus.
What Russia is doing in Ukraine is closer to America in Vietnam or Israel in Gaza than anything even Trump has done recently. And I doubt you’ll find many on this forum defending even the latter.
Out of these four, at least Syria is better off. Everything, literally everything is better than what the Assad regime was. The gruesomeness of Assad and his regime is on a level not seen since 1945.
Afghanistan was an utter failure of all of Western societies. Yes, we provided a generation worth of women with access to schools. But we never provided a way for Afghanistan as a country to stand on its own feet, instead we looked away while one half of the military didn't exist on paper and the other half raped children for funsies (look up "bacha bazi").
Libya... now that is mostly upon us Europeans. Ghaddafi, I'm glad this prick is gone, but again we didn't do anything to meaningfully help Libya grow, and by the time Putin began supporting oppositional warlords, the game was lost.
And Iran... oh dear god what a mess, dating back to the history of the US using Kurds for their aims and then letting them to die without support. This entire shitshow was a disaster from start to finish, even if the idea was noble - the Mullahs slaughtered tens of thousands of protestors the start of this year, it would have been incredibly unethical to just stand aside again.
The idea of nobly saving people is just “think of the children” on the nation-state level. It sounds great but gets used for every politician’s own ends.
Within the narrow scope of this discussion, yes. Ukraine would have a harder time hitting data centers around Moscow if they didn’t share a land border.
It certainly does not. There is a huge and growing [1] (albeit still below ‘22 peak) tech outsourcing industry there.
Plus, likely Europe’s most advanced defense-industrial base for drones and, increasingly, missiles of all kinds. Being on the right side of a war works wonders for morale.
[1] https://itcluster.lviv.ua/en/gradual-market-stabilization-wh...
Ukraine's estimated population in 2022 was around 40 million. Various numbers provided by UN officials to Ukrainian govt officials have at various times put Ukrainian population (in govt controlled areas) at 35 million [1], 32 million [2], 22-25 million [3]. This with adult men being actively blocked from leaving Ukraine.
[1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-war-ukrainian-po... [2] https://kyivindependent.com/200-000-500-000-men-could-leave-... [3] https://www.novinite.com/articles/238511/The+Uncomfortable+T...
yeah, hating papers is our national trait at this point, given Diia and stuff XD
So the talent has left, but not because they disagree with Putin actions.
> On the first anniversary of the invasion, rallies took place in the main cities where Russian exiles settled, including Tbilisi, Vilnius, Berlin, Barcelona, Paris and London, with turnout in the hundreds. In Yerevan, protesters burned a picture of Putin.
> In November 2024, at least a thousand people marched through central Berlin behind Navalnaya, Yashin and Kara-Murza, with parallel rallies in cities including Prague, Vilnius, Yerevan, Lisbon and San Francisco.
> Another Berlin march followed in 2025, after the third anniversary of the full-scale invasion.
And not just EU/US but moreso in other countries, where the migration wave was much bigger, eg Georgia and Armenia; after those protests many Russians were banned from entering Georgia after a visa run, yet others continued protesting anyway. Just google it for christ sake?
Also to me, as a Russian immigrant, protesting from another country doesn't make a lot of sense.
Anyway, at this point your comments in this thread are pure ragebait and not worth spending time replying to.
it really never was. apart from a few one-off examples they have nothing if interest and quality.
very valuable, very high tech.
for nginx/intelij - you can find a few good examples in any country on earth.
does not make the country good in tech.
Maybe this would remind ordinary russians that killing innocent civilians every day in Kyiv is not good
Ordinary Russians think the war's bad too. Only difference is you and I can say that without getting 15 years in a (very harsh) prison.
Maybe Russians outside Russia.
Of course almost everyone thinks war is bad, but many seem to think it's justified - different thing.
There seem to be a wide support for the idea that Russia is threatened (economically and to an extent military) by the global West, and also that Ukraine is not entitled to be independent and also many of the official lies about the background.
Good lies have a nugget of truth in them, and this is the case also here.
Russia's economy is not growing (compared to EU, US), fertility rate is down, the revolution in Ukraine undermines the stability of the Russian regime, the attempted coup in Belarus was also a threat, NATO is arguably expanding - lately as a reaction to the war but nonetheless, EU is expanding into post-Soviet states both offering membership but also trade agreements which undercut Russia's ambition to be an economical hub in the region, etc.
War affects an ordinary Russian in very negative ways: the possibility of conscription (w/ risk of injury/death), complications for travel, sanctions on goods and services, and the economic opportunity cost (money wasted on war that could have gone to productive uses, plus reduced economic output due to drone strikes on yandex, wildberries, refineries).
That's just not compatible with ambitions of its corrupt leaders who want to be a root-level player, not "one of NATO countries". And I'm not sure how legitimate is prioritization of wants of corrupt leaders over well-being of your compatriots.
Russia actually have been a member of Council of Europe (PACE, etc.) since 1996 but it was expelled in 2022. If they had a good record in Council of Europe they could really go for NATO membership eventually.
What happened is that nato realized that if Russia joins, it will loose the reason to exist (i.e. if the old enemy joins the alliance what is the need for such an alliance anymore?)
So nato bureaucrats understood that they will loose well-paying positions and rejected even initial talks.
That’s not surrender because Russia started this invasion without provocation. It wasn’t under attack and Ukraine hadn’t joined NATO.
Russia had no reason to invade except as a show of force.
If Putin suddenly declared he’d met his objectives and withdrew who’s to say otherwise?
The same can be actually said about Zelensky, for whom any concessions to Russia mean political death too. If Ukraine loses territories forever, people will ask, why so many had to die for that. What was the plan. And blaming the West (which won‘t be 100% justified) will not help. And he may feel that now he is applying good pressure too, with those drone strikes and knocked out refineries.
Since then I think they simplified the system and just forge the results outright.
tl;dr Other parties are Putin-like, and if/when a genuine alternative emerges, Putin deals with them ruthlessly. Example: Navalny was the charismatic leader of a small but popular rival party with anti-corruption policies. He was initially delegitimised (not allowed to partake in the 2018 elections due to [likely fake] charges of embezzlement), then poisoned (nearly died), then imprisoned, and then killed while in prison.
Consider the terrifying message that sends to would-be political rivals...
Estimate range is big because lots of civilians died in cities that ended up occupied.
[1] https://meduza.io/en/feature/2023/10/06/i-m-used-to-walking-...
"innocent civilians every day in Kyiv is not good".
Estimations for how many civilians Russians killed in Chechnya range from 45,000 to 80,000.
Does not sound like looking for a source, but I'm not a native speaker.
Russia could stop this invasion any time and not a single Russian would be hurt. Pure Kreml propaganda on HN, how sad.
Are we looking at the same thing? Was it deleted somewhere?
Surrendering to Russia does not bring peace to Ukraine only more suffering.
They have to fight on, Russia does not.
2) The UN estimate is considered on the low end because it looks into confirmed deaths while many civilians were killed in cities that became occupied and we have no numbers from there.
Since Mariupol fell to Russia, they never counted the dead. There are horror stories of the bodies not being buried for month after surrender, and in some cases, Russians simply pawed over the places with many dead (a prominent example is the theater in the city center, but there were more).
The numbers you are quoting are the "counted" ones. Mariupol, Sieverodonetsk, Kherson, saw a lot of deaths that were never counted.
Sorry to bring another conflict into the picture, but it's useful to illustrate the point. In Gaza, the "health ministry" used a different "technique" to count the dead. Normally, to establish that someone died, there has to be a qualified medical professional at the scene, they also have to get a hold of identifying documents (or else, they will be counted as "John/Jane Doe", but in the morgue, much later). In some "special" cases a non-medical professional may record a death (they are usually defined using the language like "the head is more than 50 cm away from the rest of the body" etc.) But they switched to "incorporating reports from the news sources" (i.e. if some newspaper reported X people killed in some event, they just added X to the tally).
After the front line stabilized in Ukraine, they had no reason (or excuse) to count their civilian casualties in the way Gaza administration did, so, they never incorporated those who were never properly reported. And that's why we have a relatively "low" numbers. If Ukraine is ever able to regain control of the territory captured after 2022, these numbers are bound to go much, much higher, as they will have to deal with eg. property ownership and would have to either declare the previous owners as deceased, or actually find them.
Slava Ukraini!
The audacity of those bots these days.
A bit like some of the conscripted Ruzzian orcs, eh?
Simple, Putin talked about this for decades, you can read about it:
The goal is the re-establishment of the Russian empire in it's largest borders, beginning with his massacres in Chechnya and the invasion of Georgia.
Russia settled Russians in Ukraine to control/destroy it for decades (like in the Baltics, Georgia and in many different places, the usual Russian tactic). Then Russia instigated a civil war in Ukraine and finally invaded Ukraine in 2014, so there were fights in Donbass back then with deaths (Russia also shot down a Malaysian plane in 2014 from Donbass).
"Your weapons are murdering Russian civilians right now, but you don't care, why?"
Because those Russian civilians voted and supported a dictator who wanted and wants to invade Europe and re-enslave the population. And Russians loved it, they loved it plundering and murdering and torturing people in Europe before and they will again.
Russia encouraged Serbs to start WW1 because Russians wanted to invade Europe through their puppets on the Balkans, later invaded Europe in 1939 in a joint military operation with the Nazis/Germans and will do so again whenever Russians see the chance to do so.
I would prefer no war but a big wall, mile deep minefields and drone/ballistic/SDI defenses instead to keep Russians out and stop them from invading Europe again, but I guess Russia needs to first lose this war to make this a reality.
Looks like Ukrainians don't believe in "turn to him the other cheek".
What led to it? Putin wanting to re-establish the Russian empire as he said and wrote many times about.
It's a mystery to me, Hitler wrote exactly what he wanted to do, he did it and people were surprised. Putin wrote exactly what he wanted to do, he did it and people were surprised. A mystery.
The question why people who do not agree with the government should also pay the price for a war started by their government/country is not specific to this war.
I missed that in news. Can you point to the source?
The beautiful thing about US war is that it never gets back home. The moment it starts, the populance starts pulling back support. But if you are shooting random people in the desert and middletown nowhere's McDonald's are functioning, its all gravy.
Have you checked the diesel prices?
Makes me wonder how much compute is already being built in bunkers under mountains.
Not worth paying 100x for the bunker to save 1x worth of computer stuff.
So you build your stuff inside a mountain and run a bunch of big ass liquid cooling loops to heat exchangers in the atmosphere outside the mountain. The requirement of the cooling system being out in the open air means it can also be hit by air strikes, an adversary doesn't need to penetrate the mountain, just take out its cooling.
You'd have to build a fully underground cooling system that goes to a nearby river (or huge lake) and use the cold water from that, which would get costly quick.
Helsinki gets its water from the 120 km Päijänne Water Tunnel, which cost €200-250 million (adjusted for inflation) to build. Peak flow is 10 m^3/s by gravity alone and up to 20 m^3/s with pumps, which should be enough to cool a 1 GW data center. You could increase the cost by 2x (because real wages have gone up), by another 2x (because middlemen have destroyed productivity), and by yet another 2x (because everything is more expensive in America), and it would still be pretty reasonable.
Musk comes up with a crazy idea.
Investors, "analysts" and sycophants go to great lengths to defend it.
Rational people wonder if everyone is losing their mind.
Musk profits.
Edit: I guess the scale isn't comparable to a, for example, Google data center though.
[1] https://www.ironmountain.com/data-centers/colocation/our-dat...
[2] https://betterbuildingssolutioncenter.energy.gov/showcase-pr...
Do you need many acres of land to host a heat exchanger?
https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/russian-satel...
Dont know why i can't reply to the person commenting below. But where's the statistics? Who has these datacenters out in the field?
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=london+un...
You could probably drill sideways into rocks and pump heat into the mountain for a certain period of time, but on a multi-month or year time scale, it would catch up with you after you had saturated it.
https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/build-design/safer-under...
It's a severe engineering challenge to hide massive heat exchangers on the scale of the datacenters built in the industrial area near Dulles (coordinate example: 38.9817915,-77.417775). Find those on a map and observe the scale of their cooling and generator systems and then try to find anything comparable that's been built underground.
edit: 61.9340107, 5.5084207 are the coordinates
https://new.abb.com/news/detail/5924/abb-solutions-power-eur...
Just wanted to make the point you don’t have to pay to excavate the cave :)
There are mines with plenty of space in them, and heat removal can be done with water cooling. But who is going to pay 50% more for that when it isn't needed 99.99% of the time?
Huh? The ones I know of have plenty of connectivity. The real issue is your first, that people prefer to just put their stuff in two countries over paying premium for having their servers under ground.
Although I personally would expect some sort of decentralisation option to be more effective. It's difficult to even theorise because we don't know exactly what sort of damage these strikes are doing and what countermeasures are already in place. If this strike has caught Yandex by surprise after almost 5 years of hot war then they really should hire a dude to check up on current events every so often. They must have some sort of contingency planning around a Ukrainian strike.
But yeah, the economic incentives are creating unicorns and centralizing compute/capital/etc.
https://united24media.com/war-in-ukraine/ukraine-hits-russia...
You could potentially bury them in the ground, assuming you don’t use a generator for backup power. To my knowledge, this is not done today except in urban areas where an underground vault is used for power and comms.
https://www.decommsystems.com/resources/what-goes-into-an-il...
Also Yandex is a large cloud provider, they host a lot of government-connected companies.
Ukraine has a very targeted response but notably tries to minimise civilian casualties
The reason why Ukraine, Russia and Iran are targeting data-centers is because they are easy targets with a lot of expensive equipment, but they don't really impact the military operation. So, they aren't high priority targets. Bomber airplanes, air defenses, launchers for ballistic missiles, command centers, factories manufacturing strategic military equipment, telecommunications, energy infrastructure would be the examples of high priority targets. The data-centers are more of a "we have excess drones, why not use them?"
I find it hard to believe that the military will intentionally use civilian data-centers for its own purposes. At least, not for the core of its operations (for auxiliary functionality: maybe). Military data-centers are likely to be in protected locations, perhaps using different h/w that addresses the cooling problem.
Also, it's a bit myopic to think that AI is having such a universal and large impact on society. Jobs that provide essential goods and services are, by and large, unaffected by AI. Farmers, construction workers, cooks etc. don't really use any of the AI stuff on the day to day basis, if at all.
Perhaps an economic justification can be found for placing something so far up the gravity well that its adversaries can no longer physically approach it. Distributing the resource across many satellites would further confound any attack.
Increasing the cost of effect on a single target from $1,000 to $1,000,000,000 makes a difference. Especially when that 2nd option is likely to trigger additional multilateral strategic responses. If the only way to delete your adversaries data centers is with things like nuclear weapons, lasers and multi-stage rocketry, your adversary may have already won the game.
Welding lasers are pretty cheap, the two hard parts are a big enough apperture to focus 500 km away, and adaptive optics, both of which have already been demonstrated decades ago in astronomy.
I'm not saying Iran and North Korea already have such capabilities, but I am saying I think neither would have trouble building it six months ago if they'd wanted to.
The active thermal control system (ATCS) on the ISS uses an ammonia loop and radiators measuring 13.6 x 3.12 meters, or about 42.5 square meters. It can dissipate 16 kW, which is enough for 16 H200s, or one-quarter of a rack on Earth. For 200 kW, you would need a system 12.5 times larger, about 531 square meters—2.6 times larger than the solar array. The satellite would be enormous, larger than the ISS, and all of that for only three racks.
https://codedtrip.com/en/blog/data-centers-in-space-disastro...
Starlink gen 3 satellite is designed to dissipate 250 kW. You are talking about an already solved issue, with real hardware already being built today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_droplet_radiator
Perhaps, but the parent comment posited that some people would pay the premium for orbital data center due to much better security. At $200 per kg to orbit, it could make sense.
It's not that hard, Starlink constellation already dissipates around 100 MW of heat, split over many satellites. Any orbital datacenter would use similarly distributed satellites.
Or will we see civilian datacenters with their own defensive drone swarms, and a couple of phalanx-style point defence systems for good measure?
If all you seek is to destroy (how en-vogue...) then that's more than perfect; not just destroy what's there but also make sure that by virtue of what remains (debris) nothing will get re-built.
As the market goes, so goes the multiple being granted to SPCX. That is, when the AI bubble contracts on the multiples being granted, SPCX will decline dramatically. In my observation HN typically widely can't differentiate properly between the real AI economy being developed and the multiples being temporarily granted in the stock market, it's common on here that people think they're the same thing ('when the AI bubble ends'). Back in reality what is going to happen is an implosion of the multiples when the growth slows (or suddenly stops due to an economic shock), and despite that the AI economy broadly will radically expand regardless over 10, 20, 30 years. See: the Internet build out (and market valuations), it will occur much the same conceptually.
He is on his way to become the first ($100 trillion) supervillain. Until 2 years ago, he stood at the center of most of the good news, then he got a few calls from Putin and he became unhinged from our (obscured) point of view. Nowadays he's a dark pattern.
Capitalism culminates in him, and he has to decide what to make of the world. He is our de-facto king, while on a personal level he has to decide what to do with his fortune. Put it into smart contracts for an AI to use and rule the world? Giving it to his kids would be underwhelming, not what he lived for.
People joked that mankind existed to bring forth the machines and would then become superfluous. The irony of it. Well, it seems irony has mr Musk. He sees the petty online bickering and he sees himself as alone, as the only adult in the room, who has to decide the fate of humanity, and his power in many domains puts him to the task.
He has his fiduciary responsibility that puts the interests of his share-holders first. He sees that as a healthy check on his power. At the end of all his calculations he has responsibilities akin to the Star Wars Emperor. Just like many white men, who come spend the remainder of their days in function and in defense of their property. Not in defense of life.
So Musk needs his antagonist to arrive on the scene, so he can repurpose his empire for the good the antagonist brings, as he represents a complete overhaul of the way life is lived. So the jury is out on mr Musk, and may he always remember his status as an American is just a hustle gone wild. Similar to the dynamic of how a liar has to keep extending his web of lies. He will make it into a machine that will carry his burden going forward. And then what? When, if ever, will he remember he is an African, and a friend of his own antagonist? His final words may sound like: Luke, I am your Father!
It's not that it can't be done at all, but heat dissipation at scale in space is an insane engineering challenge, the tech to make giant radiators work doesn't exist yet, and even if it did it would extremely costly to develop and deploy.
Musk is a textbook narcissist. His consistent pattern is to make grandiose promises - literal future faking - fulfil a small percentage of them, then make even bigger and more grandiose promises and hope investors have a short memory. (They do.)
As a narcissist his primary relationship orientation is contempt for others. He's more interested in damaging projects he doesn't like - like the left-leaning community on the original Twitter, using promises of Hyperloop to kill high speed rail, ignoring the CSA from Grok, and of course the USAid fiasco - than seeing through the projects he claims to be developing to completion.
He fits in perfectly with Thiel, Altman, and the rest. The tech is sometimes interesting, but the alignment is fundamentally hostile to the rest of humanity.
Different problem.
Cooling can be done in space, it's a normal problem; not easy, nothing in space is easy, but on the scale of space it is normal.
However, at the temperature you would run a chip at, a radiator you make for space will just work better, reject more heat, if you leave it on the ground.
We get convective cooling down here as well as radiative. At operational temperature, convection more than makes up for the atmosphere being a heat bath at ~20 C or whatever.
But does it make sense to do it?
No.
You are overstating the engineering difficulty. Starlink constellation already dissipates around 100MW.
(the sarcasm is intended; there are some usecases for "space servers", around stealth for sure; to "scale it like a terrestrial DC" though ... dunno; not matter how I turn it, it just seems crazy expensive)
Will starlink build its own edge ? Maybe. We'll see. Whether it makes sense to have this infrastructure "colocated in space" if you're not also the owner of the "connection infrastructure in space" though? It'll come down to cost. If I were anyone else but SpaceX ... that's where my eyes would be.
He may have been a wrong'un before that, but he was definitely already doing a confidence trick by that point.
>Internet Connectivity for AS200350 (YandexCloud)
https://ioda.inetintel.cc.gatech.edu/asn/200350?from=1791331...
https://datacenters.google/locations/
Example quote from Azure documentation:
> Azure Government is used by the US Department of Defense (DoD) entities to deploy a broad range of workloads and solutions.
Calling such a DC a civilian target is essentialy incorrect now, and has been for years.
its also important to understand that government isnt non civilian, in this context its non military
I didn't misinterpret, you are using incorrect terminology.
[1] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-yandex-says-sec...
First, a long-running SEAD / DEAD campaign by Ukraine last year and early this which thinned Russian air defence throughout occupied territories and left Russia with difficult deployment decisions for what remained.
Second, improvements to drones (speed and EW resistance) and expanded production - meaning the air defence can be saturated.
Third, Russia's vast geography itself, leaving countless approaches to targets impossible to defend.
A mystery really...
Can we use it to judge which accounts were bots?
Yandex: > 99 % https://radar.cloudflare.com/traffic/as13238
Scaleway: 90 % https://radar.cloudflare.com/traffic/as12876
Google ASN is at 98.7% https://radar.cloudflare.com/traffic/as15169
It could be malicious, but that exact stat doesn't show that.
Implication was that tons of malicious traffic originate from there. I pointed out that bot % stat doesn't seem to be useful for determining that, Occam's razor and all.
People on X comment on the noticeable drop in bot comments.
Great will be when all huge data center are visited by free range unknown drones, like what happened to the Wildberries.
I'm also surprised that people can't see this simple solution to the situation.
Destroying heating units in Ukraine also affects innocent users in much worse ways than losing a datacenter.
The vast majority of Russians loved the war mostly because they made lots of money from it. Just when Ukraine started hitting oil infra people no longer liked the war. I am sorry for those 10% of Russians who didn't want the war and can't move abroad.
20% of Russians were ready to vote for an anti-war party in the last elections before it was illegally removed from the ballots, and many more don't support the war. The people who do are mostly old or live in small towns with no access to education. I doubt many of them are Yandex Cloud users.
I assume - one would need to check - that the majority of people who left Russia after 2022 did not support the war, so those left should be on the lower end.
"20% of Russians were ready to vote for an anti-war party in the last elections"
Yes, as I've said, approval dropped when Ukraine hit oil infra and gas prices went up, I can see 20% as a number. Nevertheless as show by approval ratings after 2014, that number was lower until people got hit by the impact of the war themselves.
[Edit] People didn't keep that money but spent it so others profited from that money too.
This is what happens in wars - beside war racketeers - salaries go up. There is a lot of research on how German profited from WW2 (and before) for example for most of the war. WW2 too seems most researched from what I see on how everyone profits until things get worse and end.
This is impossible, even in a dictatorship.
The starvation years of the DPRK in the mid 1990s directly after the collapse of the Soviet Union might be the closest that such a state has come to the situation getting so dire that the people could have theoretically risen up, no matter the consequences, but for a myriad of reasons the North Koreans were unable to.
Same random people who works and support military machine with money and labor.
The more damage Ukraine does to them the better. Maybe then these Russians who allegedly don't like Putin will get their shit together and do something about him. He's their responsibility. They are, like it or not, supporting his war simply by existing in the Russian economy. If the entire country really wanted him gone they could get him gone.
https://unn.ua/en/news/the-russian-attack-damaged-a-restaura...
Interesting take. Last I checked, those datacenters hosted software that targeted a children's school.
I guess for some definition of "innocent".
If - I assume there is - there is a post shared on HN about Israel and Gaza we can discuss that genocide there.
(1) 89% of Russians approved Putin and the 2014 Crimean invasion
According to Putin.
Lewada, the pollster which got sacked later as a "foreign agent", got 86%
See the difference? Dual use / military goals vs mass murdering civilians.
I hope that Putin will not attack again the electricity and power in Ukraine , hopefully the retard is scared now that Ukraine will bring the cold to the Moscowites and I am not happy for the children in Moscow to suffer because of the adults not giving a shit about the criminal they elected.
And I'm sure these data centers were also used for military purposes, no way they weren't in the current russian environment.
Huh?
The severity of the attacks on Russian borders have I believe still a limited effect on the course of the war, but I suppose it certainly won't hurt Ukraine's chances to in some form survive this war.
No, it has been merely hit (usually once) and typically repaired in the span of a few days. The whole "double-digits percents have been destroyed" typically comes from not so high quality news agencies. Some things were destroyed more thoroughly, but their margin is largely negligible.
My dude, it’s one of the most heavily censored search engines on earth
The general decency of condemning any/all types destruction won't apply here.