About 10 years ago, when it was less well-known, you could find better raw leaf powder and it was helping people get off actual opiates.
IIRC there's an effect where the actual chemicals get stronger for older leaves. The bigger market has caused the harvest period to shorten, making the powder worse quality, and creating room for the concentrated extracts and stuff like 7-Oh.
Tragedy of the commons I guess. I knew people who started taking way too much, but also people who were able to use it responsibly. People say "let doctors prescribe", but that ignores how in order for that to happen, a pharma company will need something they can patent, pay for the years of testing, get sole control over it for a period, and years later a generic can come about. All when you can dry a leaf and use it as-is. There should be room for plants to be consumed. Screw it, enjoy poppy, cannabis, kratom, tobacco, etc.
It probably shouldn't be sold in gas stations but it probably also shouldn't be outright banned, as we'll just get new, more dangerous analogues.
Centigonal 44 minutes ago [-]
Actually reasonable decision from the DEA under RFK. Scheduling concentrated/semi-synthetic kratom products while leaving the weaker leaf-based products alone is a good compromise to reduce harm without criminalizing kratom (which has beneficial uses for opioid recovery and maintenance therapy) in general.
thinkingtoilet 41 minutes ago [-]
If it actually has beneficial uses let a doctor prescribe it. Kratom is extremely addictive and should be illegal yesterday.
chlorion 32 minutes ago [-]
The doctors will prescribe methadone or suboxone instead most likely, both of which are *massively* more powerful and addictive than kratom.
nozzlegear 5 minutes ago [-]
Prescribing opioids in the US is heavily monitored and scrutinized now. Doctors (and NPs, of which my mother is one) have to document the justification, meet state law restrictions, verify the prescription drug monitoring checks with their state, and complete the EHR workflows[†] that need to be completed. There are more checks after that too that the pharmacist has to complete, and the insurance company will have oversight checks they'll do as well.
Not saying people can't or won't get addicted to the drugs prescribed by doctors, but there's a lot more checks and oversight to it (these days) than there is for kratom right now.
[†] At least in my mother's case, their EHR system will also flag opioid prescriptions for review by a board.
KludgeShySir 9 minutes ago [-]
This is a very overblown assertion about kratom. I've heard of people getting addicted, but no one I've known personally has ever had any issues.
I have been using kratom almost daily for about a decade, and it has been one of the most useful substances for managing my physiology in response to my environment. It's great for stress reduction, but my most common use is actually ADHD treatment (which I doubt would be "on-label" if it went through the healthcare clusterf*dge)
The ability to self-titrate is one of **the most important parts**. I know how much I need, and when I need it. With doctors or psychiatrists, you gotta schedule appointments and then try out a dosage for a while, then schedule a recheck and refine the dosage, etc etc etc. I have not had much success with prescription drugs, and I have tried many
v8xi 36 minutes ago [-]
Theres a guy Grant Harding on YT etc. who sends gas station pills for testing and some of the things he finds are scary. Seriously addictive drugs being sold OTC with no meaningful consumer warning or guardrails
jambalaya8 23 minutes ago [-]
This was happening during the early 2000s, though in more "reputable" places (like nutrition and supplement stores; different "drugs" and chemicals, though). Not really surprised it is still going on in the weird little label producers.
zingababba 10 minutes ago [-]
You used to be able to find some wild stuff in GNC ~20 years ago, the 'pro-hormone' era was funny.
All the cannabinoid analogs are a good example too, people just want to get high.
I do miss salvia extracts though. Being able to pick that up in a head shop was nice before it got banned.
sigmoid10 29 minutes ago [-]
>Seriously addictive drugs being sold OTC
Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances in existence and it is sold everywhere. If governments actually cared about addiction risk, a whole lot of things would have to disappear from normal stores.
vitally3643 24 minutes ago [-]
You have to provide ID and be over 21 to purchase nicotine. You can't advertise nicotine products. You have to be licensed to sell nicotine products.
Same for alcohol. Restrictions on who can buy, who can sell, and how you can advertise and market.
These are not the same as some random pill from a gas station sold to anyone with cash with zero regulations, safety, restrictions, or even any requirement to tell you what's actually in it.
newsclues 14 minutes ago [-]
When I was a kid, there were cigarette vending machines.
I am not that old.
bullfightonmars 2 minutes ago [-]
Then what happened?
Better regulation, better enforcement, anti-smoking advertising campaigns, banning public smoking, and drastically reduced amongst youth and the general public.
Cigarette regulation to reduce smoking starting in the mid/late 90s is the poster child for public policy done well.
Legend2440 21 minutes ago [-]
Governments have spent considerable effort on it, but it's tough to ban something as popular as tobacco or alcohol.
Voters tend to get what they want, and a sizeable fraction of voters smoke or drink.
ipaddr 25 minutes ago [-]
So is caffeine.
AshamedBadger56 21 minutes ago [-]
This is always mentioned when people talk about addictive substances being widespread. However, I think the key thing to think about isn't whether somethings addictive or not, but if said addiction comes with significant negative consequences/attributes. I don't think you'll find many people saying Caffeine is GOOD for you, but it just doesn't have significant negative outcomes like Tobacco.
sweetjuly 9 minutes ago [-]
Psychology in general tend to make the same distinction. There are lots of behaviors which may be considered abnormal but do not have a meaningful impact on the quality of life of the person or those around them, and so there little reason to pathologize it. The goal of medicine (and, in my mind, well-designed public policy) is to prolong quality of life and not to ensure everything adheres to strict standards.
ipaddr 16 minutes ago [-]
Nicotine has positive and negative effect tobacco is one delivery method.
unshavedyak 21 minutes ago [-]
Huh, i should look at this. I've been an aggressive drinker for most of my adult life (2 pots a day at my height), but for kicks i decided to cut all caffeine for about 9 months. No real issues aside from very short term headaches, though even those i mitigated by gradually moving down in quantity.
Aside from the headaches what addictive effects are you referencing?
ipaddr 14 minutes ago [-]
Side effects of caffeine withdraw? Lack of focus, nervous, poor sleeping, vivid dreams.
unshavedyak 11 minutes ago [-]
Huh, don't think i had any of those. Though arguably i had "Lack of focus", difficult to say how much is due to the lack of caffeine or due to undiagnosed ADHD though.
Generally i felt fine. I'll keep it in mind, thanks
ralph84 23 minutes ago [-]
And sugar
Forgeties79 21 minutes ago [-]
These are incredibly reductionist arguments y’all are engaging in.
Forgeties79 27 minutes ago [-]
Nicotine is far more regulated and generally won’t lead you to pass out behind the wheel of a car or drown in a hot tub. You can’t even smoke in the vicinity of many buildings, but kratom? It’s basically an unregulated opiod that anyone over 18 can get and use wherever, whenever, with little to no control over what’s actually in it because it’s not food, medicine, etc.
sigmoid10 26 minutes ago [-]
So are most OTC drugs. Doesn't change the fact that you can get them everywhere. And long term nicotine use causes dependence similar to heroin.
ipaddr 20 minutes ago [-]
Not really but great talking point. The exact quote is it's as hard to quit smoking as heroin. But in reality getting off heroin cold turkey can kill you, where you need to be locked in room sweat it out. People quiting smoking still go to work but their mood is poor. Not the same at all.
Forgeties79 23 minutes ago [-]
It doesn’t even compare man. I am pro legalization of drugs but it doesn’t mean they should be as unregulated as kratom currently is
DrBrock 10 minutes ago [-]
Ah yeah surely banning more substances will be the end of the problem this time! It definitely won't just push anyone who got hooked on this non-lethal opioid towards unregulated black markets filled with lethal fentanyl...
Fun fact, this is one of two """temporary""" opioid schedulings happening right now. The DEA is also banning 5,6-Dichloro Desmethylchlorphine (SR-17018), which has minimal to no recreational value and is the current most promising breakthrough therapy for opioid withdrawals. It is hard for me to read the combination of these two bans as anything but active malice.
> It is hard for me to read the combination of these two bans as anything but active malice.
Reading the document...
> In recent years, online forum users have begun to discuss recreational use of these four synthetic opioids and commonly compared these four synthetic opioids to other traditionally abused opioids, such as morphine and fentanyl (schedule II substances). However, unlike these two drugs that have FDA-approval for use in specific medical treatments, the four synthetic opioids have no currently approved medical use and, based on positive identifications of these four substances in forensic drug exhibits and toxicology samples, are likely to be trafficked and abused similarly to other synthetic opioids, such as brorphine (schedule I).
overgard 9 minutes ago [-]
One of the big dangers I've heard of with 7-Oh is it seems like treatment centers don't really know how to treat withdrawal from it, which I've heard is extremely rough.
ttul 27 minutes ago [-]
It's kind of amazing that this took so long. On the other hand, this is just chapter 3025223 of the failed war on drugs and we can be confident that people will find something worse as an alternative.
fierycatnet 49 minutes ago [-]
Kratom has been beneficial for me. Extracts can go but the leaf should stay.
IAmGraydon 2 minutes ago [-]
My opinion is that long term daily kratom use is terrible for your health, but it doesn't carry an overdose risk so it should stay legal and the decision to use or not should be up to the user.
aftbit 51 minutes ago [-]
aka "gas station heroin"
Hikikomori 40 minutes ago [-]
Gas stations have the best drugs
tclancy 32 minutes ago [-]
Whereas the sushi is hit or miss.
hoistbypetard 24 minutes ago [-]
Anyone got a quick primer on what 7-Oh is? That's a new term for me and the web search doesn't seem reliable.
I don't usually agree with prohibition, but 7OH is the kind of drug that spirals into a self destructive addiction VERY quickly. Most opioids require using for a number of weeks before you start to develop enough physical dependence to bring about withdrawal. 7OH has this weird withdrawal-like crash after even a single use that makes the user immediately feel terrible and often they seek more to make it go away. It's like the crack of the opioid world. On top of that, tolerance builds extremely quickly. Glad to see it go.
kccqzy 43 minutes ago [-]
Last year, the FDA had already said that if kratom is added to food, it is considered adulteration of food. It also cannot be a dietary supplement.
I’m not fully cognizant of the interaction between FDA and DEA, but I would’ve thought that following FDA’s announcement last year, kratom had already been outlawed.
Legend2440 25 minutes ago [-]
> I would’ve thought that following FDA’s announcement last year, kratom had already been outlawed.
The FDA can say you can't sell it as a supplement or food. But they can't stop you from possessing it or selling it as a chemical.
When the DEA schedules it, it is illegal to possess or sell in any capacity.
dataflow 9 minutes ago [-]
Interesting that the drug enforcement administration can make it illegal to buy something as a chemical. Their name would suggest that they're merely the enforcement arm of the FDA regarding drugs.
xvxvx 47 minutes ago [-]
See, where you went wrong was… you started taking something called ‘Kratom’… from a local gas station.
mwigdahl 55 minutes ago [-]
Only one mention of Trump, and it was from an RFK quote. How refreshingly restrained compared to similar announcements by other departments.
Krutonium 1 hours ago [-]
Good, Kratom (as sold in products like Feel Free) is fucking awful.
Feel Free (and similar) extracts like this are especially onerous. It's no longer Kratom powder that takes a lot of effort to get into trouble with.
These extracts are not very well studied, and may be stronger than many Schedule II opioids. Especially for certain brain chemistries.
In no world should Feel Free execs not be in prison at this point. They know precisely what they are doing, and their marketing is especially nasty since they market it towards addicts as a safe alchohol alternative.
Kratom powders of 15 years ago can be defended in many ways. These extracts have absolutely no leg to stand on. They are an end-around opioid scheduling.
Forgeties79 55 minutes ago [-]
It’s wild that this stuff has remained unregulated for so long. Usually that can be attributed to the demographics (perceived or real) of the users though.
I know very little of this but it seems like not all things kratom are affected.
> This temporary scheduling action does not apply to botanical kratom products that contain naturally occurring 7-OH below the specified threshold. Instead, it targets synthesized products and those containing elevated concentrations of 7-OH as outlined in the temporary scheduling order. DEA believes these substances pose an imminent threat to public safety given their effects are highly unpredictable.
Paragraph A,not paragraph B applies to actual kratom leaf.
NDlurker 50 minutes ago [-]
Kratom is great. I used to make a kratom chai tea, felt similar to hydrocodone
zardo 42 minutes ago [-]
Crack is great, it gets you really high.
NDlurker 40 minutes ago [-]
Everything in moderation. I know a few successful adults who have tried crack. Personally, I'd never want to try it but people can do what they want. I've been around people high on powder cocaine a few times and they were incredibly annoying.
thinkingtoilet 40 minutes ago [-]
This is the proper response. I'm sure heroin feels really really really good. The amount of addicts in this thread defending their addiction is surprising.
PS: Is that a Mr. Show reference?
chlorion 34 minutes ago [-]
I have never used kratom, and I don't plan on it. But automatically assuming anyone who isn't hellbent against it is just a junkie "defending their addiction" is pretty close minded lol.
zardo 25 minutes ago [-]
The Mr.Show lie detector skit for anyone wondering.
NDlurker 51 minutes ago [-]
"temporarily"
Downvoters must not know that when the DEA says they're temporarily banning something they mean permanently
josefritzishere 34 minutes ago [-]
This is the only sane and reasonable thing RFK has done while in office, but also possibly ever. You can't ignore that he's a completely insane dug addict.
LocalH 2 minutes ago [-]
His brain worm had a bad experience with Kratom once
Avicebron 26 minutes ago [-]
Chopping the dick off of a dead raccoon on the side of the road with your wife and kids in the car is pretty low. Even for an elected official..
Avicebron 54 minutes ago [-]
I assume these are zoomer drugs no one above 30 has heard of because they have shit to do?
ok123456 49 minutes ago [-]
7-OH is the name for derivatives of kratom that contain the active ingredients.
It has opioid-like addiction tendencies.
Lots of people who used kratom to wean themselves off opioids are now addicted to 7-OH. This includes many people over the age of 30.
1f60c 47 minutes ago [-]
Evan Edinger (who is 35) was addicted to it (see YouTube link).
Krutonium 50 minutes ago [-]
It's a not-opioid that just plays with the opiate receptors in your brain and can be purchased in a concentrated form at your nearest gas station in a lot of US States.
kami23 48 minutes ago [-]
Kratom has been around for a while, I remember seeing it in headshops at least a decade ago.
mjthrowaway1 36 minutes ago [-]
This is different. There’s the plant. Contains about 1.5% mitragynine.
Then there were purified extracts of the active alkaloids in the plant. Started around 30% mitragynine years ago now in the 85% range.
Then there were synthetic derivatives of mitragynine (7oh, mgm-15, etc.). These are much more fun/addictive and surprisingly safe. Almost all “overdoses” involved a mix of alcohol or other drugs. Much safer than fentanyl or traditional opioids because it doesn’t meaningfully trigger respiratory depression leading to asphyxiation. Unfortunately, they’re also addictive. The harm level, imho, was somewhere around alcohol or nicotine.
NDlurker 42 minutes ago [-]
I used to order it online in like 2005. Crude extracts were available maybe since 2007. The plant almost got banned several years ago. Then over the last few years all these extracts and derivatives have been coming out. MGM-15 is stronger than heroin from what I've heard. Strongest stuff I ever tried was a mitragynine gummy and it felt like hydrocodone. That one gummy had the effects of what I used to get from a couple cups of tea. Good stuff but not risking addiction to try it again. Made me nauseous too
nubinetwork 39 minutes ago [-]
I thought they were talking about krokodil, but nope... I've literally never heard of 7-oh.
jambalaya8 18 minutes ago [-]
yeah, I remember that one, and the bath salts thing. bleh.
NDlurker 7 minutes ago [-]
Bath salts were synthetic cathinones. Sold online as plant food and bath salts because they were not for human consumption ;) And then they started getting sold in head shops and gas stations. Some are highly addictive, some are more benign. Methylone was a great cheap MDMA alternative and is one of the drugs that Trump signed an executive order to fast track studying for PTSD.
As a guy posting on a nerd message board, you'd probably enjoy the nerdiness of the guys on Bluelight and places like that getting money together to have Chinese labs synthesize the chemicals they theorized would get em high.
Rendered at 16:57:16 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
About 10 years ago, when it was less well-known, you could find better raw leaf powder and it was helping people get off actual opiates.
IIRC there's an effect where the actual chemicals get stronger for older leaves. The bigger market has caused the harvest period to shorten, making the powder worse quality, and creating room for the concentrated extracts and stuff like 7-Oh.
Tragedy of the commons I guess. I knew people who started taking way too much, but also people who were able to use it responsibly. People say "let doctors prescribe", but that ignores how in order for that to happen, a pharma company will need something they can patent, pay for the years of testing, get sole control over it for a period, and years later a generic can come about. All when you can dry a leaf and use it as-is. There should be room for plants to be consumed. Screw it, enjoy poppy, cannabis, kratom, tobacco, etc.
It probably shouldn't be sold in gas stations but it probably also shouldn't be outright banned, as we'll just get new, more dangerous analogues.
Not saying people can't or won't get addicted to the drugs prescribed by doctors, but there's a lot more checks and oversight to it (these days) than there is for kratom right now.
[†] At least in my mother's case, their EHR system will also flag opioid prescriptions for review by a board.
I have been using kratom almost daily for about a decade, and it has been one of the most useful substances for managing my physiology in response to my environment. It's great for stress reduction, but my most common use is actually ADHD treatment (which I doubt would be "on-label" if it went through the healthcare clusterf*dge)
The ability to self-titrate is one of **the most important parts**. I know how much I need, and when I need it. With doctors or psychiatrists, you gotta schedule appointments and then try out a dosage for a while, then schedule a recheck and refine the dosage, etc etc etc. I have not had much success with prescription drugs, and I have tried many
All the cannabinoid analogs are a good example too, people just want to get high.
I do miss salvia extracts though. Being able to pick that up in a head shop was nice before it got banned.
Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances in existence and it is sold everywhere. If governments actually cared about addiction risk, a whole lot of things would have to disappear from normal stores.
Same for alcohol. Restrictions on who can buy, who can sell, and how you can advertise and market.
These are not the same as some random pill from a gas station sold to anyone with cash with zero regulations, safety, restrictions, or even any requirement to tell you what's actually in it.
I am not that old.
Better regulation, better enforcement, anti-smoking advertising campaigns, banning public smoking, and drastically reduced amongst youth and the general public.
Cigarette regulation to reduce smoking starting in the mid/late 90s is the poster child for public policy done well.
Voters tend to get what they want, and a sizeable fraction of voters smoke or drink.
Aside from the headaches what addictive effects are you referencing?
Generally i felt fine. I'll keep it in mind, thanks
Fun fact, this is one of two """temporary""" opioid schedulings happening right now. The DEA is also banning 5,6-Dichloro Desmethylchlorphine (SR-17018), which has minimal to no recreational value and is the current most promising breakthrough therapy for opioid withdrawals. It is hard for me to read the combination of these two bans as anything but active malice.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2026/07/01/2026-13...
Reading the document...
> In recent years, online forum users have begun to discuss recreational use of these four synthetic opioids and commonly compared these four synthetic opioids to other traditionally abused opioids, such as morphine and fentanyl (schedule II substances). However, unlike these two drugs that have FDA-approval for use in specific medical treatments, the four synthetic opioids have no currently approved medical use and, based on positive identifications of these four substances in forensic drug exhibits and toxicology samples, are likely to be trafficked and abused similarly to other synthetic opioids, such as brorphine (schedule I).
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/public-health-focus/fda-and-...
I’m not fully cognizant of the interaction between FDA and DEA, but I would’ve thought that following FDA’s announcement last year, kratom had already been outlawed.
The FDA can say you can't sell it as a supplement or food. But they can't stop you from possessing it or selling it as a chemical.
When the DEA schedules it, it is illegal to possess or sell in any capacity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLObpcBR2yw
These extracts are not very well studied, and may be stronger than many Schedule II opioids. Especially for certain brain chemistries.
In no world should Feel Free execs not be in prison at this point. They know precisely what they are doing, and their marketing is especially nasty since they market it towards addicts as a safe alchohol alternative.
Kratom powders of 15 years ago can be defended in many ways. These extracts have absolutely no leg to stand on. They are an end-around opioid scheduling.
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRZqHzDG_c8
> This temporary scheduling action does not apply to botanical kratom products that contain naturally occurring 7-OH below the specified threshold. Instead, it targets synthesized products and those containing elevated concentrations of 7-OH as outlined in the temporary scheduling order. DEA believes these substances pose an imminent threat to public safety given their effects are highly unpredictable.
PS: Is that a Mr. Show reference?
Downvoters must not know that when the DEA says they're temporarily banning something they mean permanently
It has opioid-like addiction tendencies.
Lots of people who used kratom to wean themselves off opioids are now addicted to 7-OH. This includes many people over the age of 30.
Then there were purified extracts of the active alkaloids in the plant. Started around 30% mitragynine years ago now in the 85% range.
Then there were synthetic derivatives of mitragynine (7oh, mgm-15, etc.). These are much more fun/addictive and surprisingly safe. Almost all “overdoses” involved a mix of alcohol or other drugs. Much safer than fentanyl or traditional opioids because it doesn’t meaningfully trigger respiratory depression leading to asphyxiation. Unfortunately, they’re also addictive. The harm level, imho, was somewhere around alcohol or nicotine.
As a guy posting on a nerd message board, you'd probably enjoy the nerdiness of the guys on Bluelight and places like that getting money together to have Chinese labs synthesize the chemicals they theorized would get em high.