Paredit / Parinfer ruined other languages for me. It lets you navigate up/down/in/out of the Clojure AST with keyboard commands and mutate those expressions, e.g. "Split" will split open the current data structure you're in: `(a| b)` =Split=> `(a)| (b)`, where | is caret. Join is the inverse, and it works for all data structures.
Sharlin 2 hours ago [-]
Indeed. The incredibly clumsy way we choose to edit source code has baffled me since I was first acquainted with parinfer. Having to keep the source in the shape of a valid AST almost entirely manually is really annoying.
Huh, very interesting and obvious in hindsight. What languages/syntaxes does it support though? Parinfer is lucky that it's relatively small amount of syntax, so can work for entire languages with relative ease, but how does Ki Editor work with Rust for example, if it does? Special keybindings per language?
Sharlin 1 hours ago [-]
Looks like it’s written in Rust and the examples are also in Rust :) Apparently it supports any language with a tree-sitter parser, which makes sense, tree-sitter is basically made for this.
embedding-shape 59 minutes ago [-]
Hmm, but how does that work in practice? Silly and small example; adding/remove turbofish, is very Rust specific, I can't imagine that to be generalized across all tree-sitter parsers, or I misunderstand how tree-sitter is used here, but how would you add/remove/move around Rust's turbofish for example?
HiPhish 16 hours ago [-]
> I am now generating this website with Clojure
As everyone knows, you are not a true lisper until you have written your own static site generator.
It gave me such a great high with how easy it was to add my own "templating engine" on top, implemented all using macros. The downside is that the crash came hard; there is so much more to a good static site generator such as optimizing the output, supporting scoped CSS, server-side rendering of SPA framework components, and of course integration with the Node ecosystem (for better or for worse there is just so much useful stuff). I have since moved over to Astro. It's still fascinating how far I was able to push my own SSG all by myself though.
embedding-shape 16 hours ago [-]
Heh, inspired by hiccup, I ended up implementing my favorite Clojure templating library but in Nix, exactly for the purpose of static site generation :) Even have a nifty demo of how it looks for that, it basically looks/works the same as hiccup: https://emsh.cat/niccup/examples/blog/
tymscar 14 hours ago [-]
This is awesome, thanks for sharing
fp64 7 hours ago [-]
Funny, learning Janet I exactly did that. Was quite a fun experience with the built-in PEG, so I did markdown parsing from scratch. Maybe eventually I will be a true lisper (fell in love with Scheme over 20 years ago but could never really use any lisp professionally. Now I at least do some small things in Clojure and babashka. I love babashka)
acdw 11 hours ago [-]
Oh I've written an SSG in multiple variations of lisp, as well as sh, make, and most other languages I toy around with. It's been a good "kick the tires" project but I think I need a new one.
tmpz22 12 hours ago [-]
Yeah integrating NPM is the big one, then you’re whole day converts to recovering from breaches
shevy-java 5 hours ago [-]
> As everyone knows, you are not a true lisper until you have written your own static site generator.
I think that part is quite normal. I use ruby for the same purpose,
though the only difference is that the code I use is also to be
used for dynamic websites at the same time (cgi, rack, sinatra, in
theory ruby on rails but I just can't stand rails and DHH these
days, so I am in the opposition crowd). Using static websites, though,
always feel as if I have significantly less flexibility. I do generate
some static .html files as well, but they feel less useful to me, aside
from being displayed faster, of course.
Jeaye 13 hours ago [-]
Once you learn Clojure's syntax and semantics, you're no longer bound to the JVM. There's ClojureScript (JS), ClojureCLR, ClojureDart, jank (C++), Basilisp (Python), babashka (SCI), and many others. This means that, if you don't know Java or don't like the JVM, you can likely use Clojure wherever you already feel most comfortable.
For the most part, any Clojure code which doesn't use host interop will work on all dialects. Clojure also has support for conditional code, depending on the current dialect.
This is one of Clojure's superpowers.
Hammershaft 9 hours ago [-]
As someone who loves Clojure, I wonder about the real portability across host languages. Do you have experience with any of these other dialects? (beyond the obvious CLJS & Babashka?)
for JS there is also Squint which is a light-weight ClojureScript dialect without the Google Closure Compiler
pdimitar 16 hours ago [-]
With respect, this topic in particular has been beaten to death.
I too liked Clojure when I tried it some years ago (agreed on the composition and data structures; both are _great_). But the real value-add is in the runtime, not the syntax. Java has a solid runtime but it's not yet as good as Erlang's, maybe even not up to the standards of Golang -- I am talking concurrency / parallelism here (for memory management I have no doubts Java is very good). And I know: green threads and stuff. Well, call me when you can do what Erlang / Golang can do. Then I'll look again, very seriously too.
Programming language syntax scarcely matters. It does to some extent but we the programmers tend to over-romanticize it. The runtime and its properties are the much better thing to optimize for.
foxygen 51 seconds ago [-]
The JVM is perfectly capable of Golang-style green threads now. As for Erlang, the creator of Clojure have commented in the past on why he dislikes the Actor model, and I think it is a fair criticism. Sometimes I see people praising Erlang VM as some panacea in which all the VMs should strive to be like. This is overly simplistic in my opinion, and ignores the huge trade-offs that the Erlang VM has.
regularfry 32 minutes ago [-]
> With respect, this topic in particular has been beaten to death.
Yes and no. From the discussion here I've learned about the existence of jank, which wouldn't have come up a year or so ago and might be an interesting solution to a problem for me as it evolves (that problem mainly being me not wanting to use C++ or any of the other directly supported languages in a plugin ecosystem). So these things are worth bubbling up every now and again just for the discussion to have a chance to play out.
lgrapenthin 12 hours ago [-]
Clojure is about its rigorous and pragmatic "immutability first" paradigm that you simply don't get from other PLs.
LISP is much more than just a runtime syntax, such as its distinct evaluation model and metalinguistic core.
The JVM was chosen for Clojure because of its reach and vast ecosystem. People have ported Clojure to other runtimes, even Beam (Clojerl), where it enjoys decent success, too.
pdimitar 12 hours ago [-]
All true. And I loved trying Clojure for 3-4 weeks some years ago.
Still want Erlang's runtime though i.e. the many green threads with share-nothing architecture that can communicate with each other.
sorry_i_lisp 8 hours ago [-]
Clojure on JVM with virtual-threads (green threads) and communicating only via core.async channels (CSP inspired) using immutable data structures is pretty neat, FWIW.
thaumasiotes 11 hours ago [-]
You don't think Erlang has an "immutability first" paradigm?
IsTom 41 minutes ago [-]
Erlang is weird in this regard. It has very strong guarantees when it comes to per-process heap that make GC much simpler: no escape hatches for mutability when most immutable languages do include them! But on the other hand inter-process communication is a form of mutability (using another process as a global mutable variable is trivial) and ETS etc. present a mutable interface.
manoDev 13 hours ago [-]
> Programming language syntax scarcely matters.
Clojure brings more than syntax though... there's an opinionated take on making all data structures immutable (as in, structural sharing [1]) by default. That's a huge difference in how you architect the program and debug it.
Have you tried Lisp Flavored Erlang [0]? I never got around to trying it out. I used Elixir for a couple of years, building web backends, and I truly loved the experience. I remember wanting to try out LFE but never got around to it before moving on to a different employer/stack.
I have and I did kind of like it but ultimately admitted to myself that I no longer want to use too niche or too new PLs. Elixir has a fairly solid ecosystem at this point and I am only going to switch to something even bigger (I already use Goland and Rust as well).
Love the idea of LFE but it needs a bigger ecosystem.
bcrosby95 16 hours ago [-]
When it comes to concurrency, what can golang's runtime do that is so special? When I tried it, it seemed like a worse version of Erlang's for people that prefer C style syntax. Depending upon your design space pervasive immutability is a huge boon too and golang doesn't have that but Clojure does - Erlang obviously having that and more.
I always wished clojerl took off.
pdimitar 16 hours ago [-]
I agree Golang is a worse version of OTP, no question about it, but if you are not allowed to code in Erlang/Elixir/Gleam (which sadly is 99.9% of the projects on the planet) then Golang is the next best thing.
It has footguns, sure, but with library support and discipline it can get you very far.
To me it's embarrassing that PLs still tout syntax and various other goodies, completely glossing over runtime. I might be missing something. But faux humble statements aside, I feel many others are the ones who miss something -- and that's the fact that doing stuff in parallel is a fact of life for 20+ years now and it's time all popular PL runtimes finally wake up to that fact.
If not, I am simply not considering them. And I am not saying that arrogantly though it sounds that way; there are some PLs that I _really_ liked and was almost heart-broken that I had to abandon them and not work professionally with them. But I have enough experience to know that runtime choice matters, a lot.
For the record, Racket was one of those PLs I abandoned. I know they started working on parallelism some years ago but I had to make a decision next week back then so, Elixir + Golang + Rust it is for me.
midnight_eclair 5 hours ago [-]
> the real value-add is in the runtime, not the syntax. Java has a solid runtime but it's not yet as good as Erlang's, maybe even not up to the standards of Golang
won't lie, this is hilarious. you got me from nodding along to being the spitting out food meme guy in a span of couple seconds.
JVM runtime is undeniably the most well researched and optimized runtime in history of runtimes, specifically in realm of concurrency and parallelism, it literally carries like half the world on it's back.
not to throw any shade on erlang vm - i've been a fan for well more than a decade, but other than making some interesting, but limited in practice, tradeoffs with regard to concurrency architecture, it doesn't really offer much more.
go's runtime is just a different beast altogether designed with different goals in mind and with no baggage of backward compatibility with legacy.
one particular detail i'm very grateful to Clojure for, is exactly the ability to use JVM runtime without having to touch any Java.
> Programming language syntax scarcely matters
on the contrary, it matters quite a lot.
you might be drinking some of that AI koolaid, conflating our suddenly hypertrophied abilities to produce code regardless of our familiarity with the syntax or the APIs with ability to produce and deliver good quality products, but this delusion is getting reality check as we speak.
a realization is propagating through the industry that being able to produce more code than you're able to review, comprehend and internalize is actually not a great thing.
and that's where syntax matters - it has to be high signal/noise, it has to expose you to right abstractions and it has to be pliable to allow the codebase reflect the problem in a way that minimizes cognitive load both during production and during consumption.
LLMs are language models and syntax is a crucial part of any language.
escargot4000 27 minutes ago [-]
LLM bashing aside (although I tend to agree), I agree with midnight_eclair. The claim that Erlang or Go are outright superior to the JVM doesn't really stand up. They're better at some things, and worse than others.
Regarding language syntax, it definitely matters. In the same way the vocabulary we use shapes our thoughts, the expression of a programming language shapes the implementation. Of course, as Clojurists know all too well, it's entirely possible to write Java in any language!
59 minutes ago [-]
pdimitar 2 hours ago [-]
Well, you are kind of using my comment to vent your frustrations about AI while it has barely anything to do with it -- but you tried to link the two, unsuccessfully. Which is not fair as you have no clue of my stance on AI and are extrapolating a bit too much.
Syntax does not matter simply because it's an extremely leaky abstraction of the runtime below, is my point.
Of course syntax must be high signal/noise ratio, I believe every reasonable programmer will agree. But many are making entire careers in PLs where that's not the case. Hence, in practice it does not seem to matter much, for the better or the worse.
RE: runtime, try and pay attention to the parameters given in my comments. I specifically acknowledged that the JVM is a great and mature runtime but it's lagging behind on STM / actor capabilities. Tearing down a straw man is not impressive and it comes across as you trying to gain visibility by deliberately misrepresenting your discussion opponent's arguments.
1 hours ago [-]
midnight_eclair 29 minutes ago [-]
> you have no clue of my stance on AI and are extrapolating a bit too much
apologies, but maybe next time try to elaborate more on sweeping statements like "syntax doesn't matter", because in current context my assumption for why you would say that is not all that outrageous.
> Syntax does not matter simply because it's an extremely leaky abstraction of the runtime below, is my point.
that would be the reason why syntax does matter, wouldn't it? nobody wants leaky abstractions!
ironically, Clojure is a great example of a hosted language that does not leak much in terms of underlying runtime, as evidenced by the fact that it has been implemented on top of a variety of runtimes with decent control over cross-runtime code reuse.
> acknowledged that the JVM is a great and mature runtime but it's lagging behind on STM / actor capabilities
you're stating this as if it's a fact, but what is your evidence? afaik jvm has a very extensive actor model library (Akka) and clojure does include a solid STM implementation (https://clojure.org/reference/refs).
the reality is that both of these approaches to concurrency are simply not popular enough, so your grievances with JVM for (allegedly!) lacking some important features relevant to them are not in sync with the demand.
> Tearing down a straw man is not impressive and it comes across as you trying to gain visibility by deliberately misrepresenting your discussion opponent's arguments.
don't debate-bro me bro, there are no straw men and no misrepresentations of your messages. if there are invalid assumptions - it's because instead of turning this into a dozen-messages-deep interrogation of what you really meant, i'm taking shortcuts and assuming what i believe is most plausible interpretation.
DarkNova6 4 hours ago [-]
I think you might reevaluate the runtime claim, since the JVM is perfectly capable of stackful coroutines these says.
chamomeal 15 hours ago [-]
Are JVM virtual threads not on par with golangs's concurrency? I think core.async even uses virtual threads now
pdimitar 15 hours ago [-]
If they are, I have not heard about it (which does not mean much, I check Java once a year). And if they really are then I'd give Java a serious look again because it's a mature ecosystem that was gimped by ancient runtime decisions for literal decades.
cogman10 14 hours ago [-]
As of Java 24 (Java 25 being an LTS) I'd say they are equivalent. You can use a virtual thread just like you use a regular thread and there's basically no handicaps or gotchas. In Java 21, when they were released, there is a gotcha that the pretty normal use of the `synchronized` keyword would pin a "carrier thread" which ends up blocking all virtual threads from running on that carrier thread.
Pinning can still happen in some much more rare cases, same with go. For example, FFI.
The memory usage, performance, etc are all go like. You can spawn millions of virtual threads with hardly and memory requirements and without overburdening the OS with context switches. The JVM also enjoys faster GC performance with virtual threads.
raspasov 13 hours ago [-]
^^^ This.
vips7L 10 hours ago [-]
Your knowledge is outdated. Go check again.
raspasov 13 hours ago [-]
What can the Erlang / Golang runtimes do that the JVM can’t?
pdimitar 13 hours ago [-]
Thousands of share-nothing actors (fibers / green-threads) with first-class support for communication between them, for a start. Erlang/Elixir -- immutability as well.
lgrapenthin 12 hours ago [-]
"As a rule of thumb, if your application never has 10,000 virtual threads or more, it is unlikely to benefit from virtual threads."
Obviously. But it's really nice to have the option, and none of us knows the future. I've been bitten by those "0.1% chance" things much more times than I would be not-embarrassed to admit, and I know I a not alone.
whaleofatw2022 11 hours ago [-]
BEAM threads are kinda magicsauce tho, instructions have a cost and after a certain cost total (quantums) the scheduler can divert to another virt thread to guarantee forward progress. Also the immutability rules etc make it easier to optimize this switching.
rashkov 12 hours ago [-]
What kind of software actually requires this? Honest question. Anything I can think of would probably be written by C++ devs
RossBencina 9 hours ago [-]
"requires" is of course subjective, there are always multiple ways to do something. But sometimes it is convenient to model a system as concurrent execution streams, for example: multiple sessions (servers), multiple entities (games, robotics), multiple in-flight transactions (any kind of i/o or concurrent compute). Agreed these are often C++ use-cases but there are obvious benefits to using Erlang or other virtual machines: memory safety, isolation, fault tolerance.
pdimitar 12 hours ago [-]
Web / API services during bursts. Or just when you _really_ don't want to scale horizontally.
Elixir / Golang can do this very well. And they do. I have supervised, led and authored such projects that are in production to this day.
Rust too but it's lower-level and you kind of have to hand-roll OTP which of course will always fail.
midnight_eclair 5 hours ago [-]
from experience, during bursts it's never actual web/api server that is bogged down, it's the downstream io bottlenecks.
if your accepting layer is abstracted away and implemented correctly, there is very little performance difference between different concurrency approaches and all you're exposed to as developer is implementation of your handler functions.
vips7L 10 hours ago [-]
Virtual threads can do that too.
Barrin92 11 hours ago [-]
>share-nothing actors
although this is a deliberate choice rather than some accidental defect. Clojure went with STM as its concurrency model, if you're not buying into that and you want an Actor-centric language it's not the right choice to begin with.
funcDropShadow 5 hours ago [-]
STM is seldom used in modern Clojure projects, it is certainly not the dominant model. Most projects I am aware of use a few or even exactly one atoms with immutable data structures.
10 hours ago [-]
Thaxll 13 hours ago [-]
Low memory usage.
weavejester 14 hours ago [-]
> Programming language syntax scarcely matters. It does to some extent but we the programmers tend to over-romanticize it. The runtime and its properties are the much better thing to optimize for.
I'm not sure I understand this argument. Java and Clojure share a runtime, but an idiomatic Java codebase is going to have a very different architecture and design to an idiomatic Clojure codebase. Conversely, a codebase written in Go may end up looking very similar to a codebase written in Java, despite using different runtimes.
pdimitar 14 hours ago [-]
I mean runtime guarantees and features. In this case: effortless / near-invisible concurrency and parallelism.
As mentioned, I did like Clojure. I'd switch to it if it was running inside the Erlang runtime (like Elixir does).
weavejester 14 hours ago [-]
To be clear, I'm not questioning your choice of runtime or language. I'm just curious why you think that "Programming language syntax scarcely matters", as to me that seems the same as saying "How a codebase is architectured and designed scarcely matters".
pdimitar 14 hours ago [-]
I don't see how the latter follows from the former? The former is much bigger and more abstract; syntax is just one of the vehicles to try and codify it.
F.ex. if you have an universal construct of green threads / fibers then 7 PLs could express it 7 different ways, yet underneath they'd all be the same.
weavejester 14 hours ago [-]
The programming language informs the design of the system. As I said in my earlier comment, an idiomatic Java codebase is going to be designed very differently to an idiomatic Clojure codebase, even if they both intend to solve the same problem.
pdimitar 13 hours ago [-]
But that's still not a function of the syntax per se; Java has no immutability encoded in its runtime, hence it does not offer it as a syntax either.
hibikir 12 hours ago [-]
Scala has no immutability encoded in its runtime either (as it's the same as Java), but yet syntactically it's immutable in practice. Will the JRE technically allow a val to be edited through some third party thread inspecting your code and messing with memory? Sure. But it's not a reasonable fear in any real world environment, where I cannot remember, in 15+ years of professional scala, a case where anything I expected to be immutable (everything) to be mutated under me. Nowadays people using in in an FP style don't even think of the physical threads, as green thread libraries are taking care of all the scheduling.
So focusing on the runtime's guarantees doesn't seem like a practicality focused argument to me.
pdimitar 12 hours ago [-]
You are citing a commendable exception (Scala) to tear down a bigger argument which is not exactly a fair discussion.
Furthermore, if you trace my comments, you'll see that I had to choose PLs years ago (12+ to be precise). Things were quite different at the time. Java might have almost caught up today; back then we couldn't even be certain `synchronized` is stable all the time. Just saying.
Scala did very well then, judging by your words. I could probably offer a loose analogy to Typescript as well; while it does compile to JS underneath, they added a stricter layer that makes programming in it more deterministic and stable. (Not the same thing because my main point was "runtime" but hey, show me a perfect analogy.)
You are free to say your last sentence. I am free to disagree. My practice has shown me that runtimes bleed into syntax almost always. Exceptions exist, sure.
weavejester 12 hours ago [-]
But syntax must necessarily include what it's representing, no? For instance, `{:a 1}` represents an immutable map in Clojure, in the same way that `42` represents an immutable integer in Java.
pdimitar 12 hours ago [-]
Agreed, though I didn't mean "constants" when I said "immutability".
Boxxed 13 hours ago [-]
Those differences are not due to the syntax, they're due to much deeper things like the differing type system.
weavejester 12 hours ago [-]
I'm not sure I agree. Certainly there are differences other than syntax, but that doesn't mean syntax is irrelevant. For instance, would Clojure programmers use maps as much if there was no syntax for map literals?
Syntax determines what parts of a language are within easy reach, and therefore affects how programmers use the language. Tools that a syntax make easy are used often; tools that syntax makes hard are used infrequently. This indirectly impacts how a piece of software is designed.
acdw 11 hours ago [-]
This is very much what I meant in the post (hi, I'm the author :P)! CL has maps, but they're a pain to use - not just because of the syntax, but because of the relative dearth of standard library functions to work with them compared to say, lists or even vectors.
Not even to optimize for, but to write correct programs you really need to understand the runtime which is usually broader than the syntax.
All Clojure (lisps) do is remove the stupidity of syntax.
Even if syntax is the minor thing, why wear a stupid, uncomfortable shirt while running when you could wear one so comfortable you scarcely feel it?
beders 11 hours ago [-]
Good thing you have a variety of those nowadays.
Clojure runs in the browser, Node.js, cross-compiles to Dart, works stand-alone via babashka and has a brand new C++ interfacing implementation in Jank.
The ergonomics of using a proper REPL and interactive programming is hard to beat.
9 hours ago [-]
agambrahma 16 hours ago [-]
Yeah, the content + feel felt like I'm reading this in 2013.
Nothing wrong with that, it's a good thing that stuff is discovered anew [as opposed to being lost/forgotten], but it did bring a smile to me.
TacticalCoder 13 hours ago [-]
> Programming language syntax scarcely matters. It does to some extent but we the programmers tend to over-romanticize it. The runtime and its properties are the much better thing to optimize for.
But that really depends on what you're doing. For example if I'm not mistaken Amazon was run for a very long time on a Java backend. And so was GMail's backend (and back then GMail's frontend was, IIRC, Java converted to JavaScript using GWT).
And by "early Amazon" and "early GMail", we're already talking about massive scale. It's not as if the JVM got worse since then (as someone commented: a recent addition is that Clojure now use Java's virtual threads) and it's not as if it didn't scale.
So I'd say having Clojure on top of Java (for those using that Clojure: there's also ClojureScript, babashka, etc.) ain't really a problem, as long as you're fine with the occasional Java stacktrace and Java ecosystem (GP mentions that btw: that he's not familiar with Java and that, I think, can be a bit of an issue).
I'm not sure Clojure is about it's syntax: I like the focus on immutability / pure functions and I do really dig the REPL a huge lot. In addition to that something has to be said as to the incredible stability of the language and many of its libraries.
The big value add to me is that I can have a REPL and inspect, in dev (or in prod but that'd be wild), the app I'm working on. And manipulate it: redefining variables and functions etc. And it's not some hacky hot-reloading bolted on as an afterthought kludge: it's a real Lisp REPL. There's value in that IMO.
pdimitar 13 hours ago [-]
Elixir has all that _and_ Erlang OTP's amazing guarantees. Hence I landed on it.
Elixir also offers LiveBooks i.e. you can create pre-made recipes with which you directly remote into your staging / prod and do stuff.
All that with immutability and potentially 6 digits of actors / green threads with a share-nothing architecture.
---
RE: early Amazon / Google, sure. They made do with what they had and it was and still is a heroic effort. But can we agree that they succeeded _despite_ the numerous warts and defects of the PLs and their runtimes at the time? Not _because_ of them?
I feel that people latch onto the misleading "they succeeded with language X and are big, hence the language X is great" thing way too often. No. It's not true. The only thing that follows from "big company A made it big with language X" is: "company A has an amazing engineering team". Nothing else.
dundunUp 12 hours ago [-]
Yeah, the content + feel felt like I'm reading this in 2013.
bsder 12 hours ago [-]
> Programming language syntax scarcely matters.
Certainly it matters much less in the modern era.
However, certain fundamental decisions of a language can be dealbreakers.
Requiring declarations on your functions and giving those declarations sigils so that they can be parsed quickly is an important syntax decision. Almost every modern programming language has converged to this idea.
Or take, for example, Lua. For me, personally, the 1-based-ness of Lua is simply a dealbreaker no matter how good anything else about it is.
For the "Lisps", I LOATHE the fact that you traverse lists and vectors in completely different ways--you can't just drop any container-ish thing into something that iterates/collects it. This is something that both Clojure and Racket seem to agree on--you have something that acts like a "collection" and you can walk across it the same way regardless of the specific type of collection it is. Of course, that is why a bunch of Lisp purists loathe Clojure and Racket while I like those languages. Shrug.
I find RAII (Resource acquisition is initialization) to be the source of all things evil if it infests a programming language. The popularity of C++ and Rust speaks to the quite large number of people who think my opinion is bullshit.
So, yeah, base syntax matters far less than it used to. But the engineering decisions that went into making that syntax correspondingly are far more important.
adrian_b 5 hours ago [-]
I agree with most of what you said, but I am puzzled about your claim about RAII.
Whether it is good for any kind of resource acquisition to look the same like an initialization is debatable.
On the other hand, I cannot see any counterargument to the principle that releasing any resources should not be done explicitly, but only implicitly, upon leaving a block (using reference counts for shared resources).
I doubt that you advocate for the use of explicit release commands for resources, which are a notorious source of bugs, so what is that you consider as not being the same as RAII?
RAII was a not very useful acronym that was just another form to say that the C or C++ programmers should never use the PL/I style of explicit free commands, despite the availability of functions like "free()" or "close()" in the standard library, but both memory and files and any other kinds of resources should be managed with automatic releasing.
I do not see how this sound principle can infest any language.
Obviously, I have seen examples of bad RAII implementations, like I have seen examples of misuse for any other programming principle.
bsder 3 hours ago [-]
> I doubt that you advocate for the use of explicit release commands for resources, which are a notorious source of bugs, so what is that you consider as not being the same as RAII?
Those are not the only choices.
Garbage collection is at one end of the spectrum--fully manually managed is at the other end of the spectrum. There is also another axis of acquiring/releasing allocation by object or acquiring/releasing object by pool. And, if you have it, there is the axis of allocate only at startup and never free until end of thread/application vs. allocate only at a frame of of time and then destroy them all at the next frame vs. allocate whenever and wherever.
RAII encourages the usage of lots of tiny individual objects allocated whenever and wherever all with their own lifetime cycles and makes understanding the memory usage of your application very difficult (this was the whole reason Rust was made--C and C++ made managing memory in Firefox ridiculously diffused and impossible to corral).
And, I'll be blunt, I think that Rust/Zig/C3 etc. are not the right direction in spite of the fact that I use Zig a lot. I think that the garbage collected languages cede far too much in terms of performance to the compiled ones and GC languages (like say OCaml) should be being used for systems programming more often.
For example, I think we would all be in much better shape against AI vulnerability scanners if more systems programs were in GC-type languages.
pdimitar 12 hours ago [-]
I think we can easily agree they are two entities (syntax / runtime) that feed off of each other. And I do agree that previously the syntax mattered more.
(I very much agree on Lua btw.)
Personally I am very disheartened. Surely algebraic data types should be universally a good thing and all PLs should gradually adopt them? But no, endless HN / Reddit threads bike-shedding.
Oh well.
perarneng 2 hours ago [-]
I spent a week with Clojure and coming from other functional languages my problem was not Clojure, it was dynamic typing. I got strange bugs in the standard library because I accidentally sent in nested incompatible instances of objects and it was really hard to figure out what was wrong in a quick way. With typesafe languages you are stopped at compile time.
wellpast 1 hours ago [-]
Clojure was explicitly designed to be dynamic. It’s a feature, not a bug.
Until you get better at not making mistakes that the training wheels of a static type system “protect” you from, lean into the REPL as a means to build up small correct expressions into larger ones.
tartoran 11 hours ago [-]
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> Clojure makes a big point of being a hosted language, that is, a language that runs on a premade runtime.
This is why I am found of the community, the symbiotic approach of two language communities working together.
meken 16 hours ago [-]
> I do wish there were an easier way to move in the ]}]})))}-ness of block ends though.
I’m not quite sure what this means. How is it different/worse than all parens..?
fyi I use paredit and just hit ) and it moves me past any kind of paren/bracket. But even without that you can just hit left and right..?
everforward 10 hours ago [-]
They are a pain if they get unbalanced if you aren’t using paredit. Like if I vi delete the last line of a function out of habit it’s a pain to get them back in the right order.
It’s easier if everything is parens, just hit paren til the errors are gone.
meken 8 hours ago [-]
Ah I see. That makes sense.
That’s making me really thankful to be a paredit user.
acdw 11 hours ago [-]
I use Emacs's built-in structural editing bindings, which doesn't have the auto-move-past any kind of paren/bracket thing. Maybe I could add that in.
But I was talking about like, when refactoring, I'll maybe change something from a list to a vector, and I have to change the delimiters at front and back. Or, where electric-pair does do the move-past-all-parens thing when I just spam ), it doesn't do that with ]}]}]]}}]})).
tmtvl 4 hours ago [-]
I don't recall the exact name, but I believe it's forward-up-sexp which allows you to jump forward past the next closing delimiter. Though if I'm not mistaken only the backwards one has a default binding.
meken 8 hours ago [-]
I see.
Have you ever tried paredit? It’s pretty much a lifesaver for this kind of thing.
drob518 12 hours ago [-]
Exactly. Paredit for the win.
gertlabs 16 hours ago [-]
The functional paradigm is a bit uncomfortable at first, but it does make problem solving feel... different. I personally find OOP to be the most intuitive for large scale systems design, but that's just me.
Most models do not perform particularly well in Clojure, but OpenAI models fully utilize the power of the language. Subjectively, it kind of seems to match the personality. Data at https://gertlabs.com/rankings?provider=openai
gleenn 15 hours ago [-]
> I personally find OOP to be the most intuitive for large scale systems design, but that's just me.
The beauty of Clojure shines through when you want to change something that cuts through a large part of a large project. If you are using mutable data, you may end up with many bugs from various pieces of code mutating objects inconsistently. With Clojure, if someone hands you data, you can't possibly break some distant piece of code by updating an object: it's just not possible because you only ever make fast, updated copies. The more complicated your codrbase gets, the more this benefit is realized.
I actually kind of think of it as an easier mechanism with similar outcomes to Rust's borrow checker. Only one piece of code ever owns the data so things end up much safer. However it is way easier to use IMHO because you just know that zero people own anything and everyone can read everything.
It also makes converting some code to be multi-threaded extremely easily and with some constraints guaranteeably correct.
Lots of dovetailing features neatly put together for both clarity and less bugs and more usable cores which are probably sitting idle.
schonfinkel 14 hours ago [-]
> I personally find OOP to be the most intuitive for large scale systems design, but that's just me.
Once you're more comfortable with it and want to try a typed functional programming language, I highly recommend checking OCaml (or SML, if you're into old school tech) and see how the Module Functors are applied, most software will look extremely over-engineered after you write a few functors. It's the feature I miss the most when coding in F# or Gleam, for instance.
chamomeal 15 hours ago [-]
Raw models aren't as effective with clojure as they are with typescript or python, but clojure has a superpower that most other languages don't have: the REPL! Specifically nREPL and the ecosystem around it.
An LLM is only as good as its feedback loop. If your LLM can actually test the code it writes, it's going to be much more effective. Static types are a form of feedback (if it can use the LSP), unit/integration tests are another.
Clojure has an exceptionally good repl. LLMs can eval any piece of any function. They can test out functions they aren't familiar with. They can fetch data, try out different arguments, try different approaches before committing to one. They can query a database (read-only connection, of course), look at the result, fetch data from an API, and stitch it all together. It can even hook into your running program and debug it from the inside out!!
It makes it so much more effective at using libraries or paradigms that it isn't trained on. In my experience, hooking an LLM up to the clojure repl lets it write WAY more complex stuff. I'm talking like 10x more complex programs with zero errors, cause it can literally try it out every little piece before putting it together. It's like watching a human programming. But like, really fast.
Sorry I get a little ranty when clojure + LLMs come up, because I don't think most people realize what they're missing out on. It's crazy stuff. It's also easy peasy if you use vscode. There's an extension called calva-backseat-driver that just hooks it all up for you. Gives copilot access to the repl, and I think it exposes an mcp if you want to give claude access too.
gertlabs 15 hours ago [-]
GPT 5.4+ models are extremely good at writing Clojure, agreed. In the agentic coding part of our benchmark, they do have access to the REPL via bash if they choose to use it. Filtered here: https://gertlabs.com/rankings?mode=agentic_coding
Hammershaft 8 hours ago [-]
It's fascinating that Clojure has consistently the best performing solutions and yet at the same time such a low success rate.
Do you have an idea as to why that is?
If I had to guess, two things lowering reliability:
A) Balancing parens might be tough on an LLM one-shot.
B) LLMs generate tokens sequentially, but s-expressions mean the first forms to be evaluated in a body are usually the last to be written, so the LLM has to sequentially generate layers of evaluation backwards.
regularfry 28 minutes ago [-]
I've found it helps to give the model a lower nesting limit than you might give a human who has access to a paren-balancing editor. If all functions are shallow, there's less opportunity for paren balancing to get out of control, and reasoning about the evaluation flow doesn't have to jump back and forth so much.
This also doesn't hurt the code from a human reader's point of view.
jwr 7 hours ago [-]
First, we would need to agree on what "such a low success rate" means. Programmers have a thundering herd mentality: there are usually 2-3 "top things" that are in fashion at any given time and the herd tends to go towards these top things. They are not necessarily good or "successful" (however you define that term), they are just popular today.
From my point of view, Clojure is a very successful language. It has been in stable development for >10 years now, with no major breaking changes (!). I was able to start a business using it and now make a living from it, all of it possible largely because Clojure reduces incidental complexity so much.
Now, as to LLMs, I can see this discussion is mostly theoretical, so let me pitch in with data. I've been using LLMs for Clojure for a while now and it works fantastically, from what I read about other languages, quite a bit better for me than for others. Balancing parens was a problem for early LLMs without tools, Claude Opus with clojure-mcp tools doesn't encounter that problem at all.
Additionally, the ability to try things in the REPL means that LLMs are very effective: all hypotheses and solutions are immediately tested, with automatic feedback.
Overall I get great value from LLMs and I am able to solve large problems with them.
6 hours ago [-]
xoxolian 7 hours ago [-]
If B), then maybe the LLM should be instructed to prefer things like the -> and ->> operators. So the first forms evaluated are also the first written.
xoxolian 16 hours ago [-]
Thanks for the link!
What would you say is missing from Clojure for large-scale OOP design? As I understand, Clojure gives you OOP a la carte. Objects (via maps/records/structs), polymorphic dispatch (via multimethods/protocols/case), types (via Malli/TypedClojure), inheritance (via derived, isa?, etc), some encapsulation (via defn-/^:private)...
chamomeal 15 hours ago [-]
Not the person you're replying to, but have you tried TypedClojure? I've always thought clojure-with-types would literally be the perfect language, but I also read TypedClojure is more of a research project than a real language that you should use in prod.
xoxolian 14 hours ago [-]
No sorry, of the things I've listed, I'd never seen nor heard of a project that uses Typed Clojure, nor probably inheritance via dervied/isa?.
For static (partial) typing, I instead use Malli schemas. I do this for every larger Clojure program I make, because there's always something that needs paranoia, or it's handy to generate example data.
gertlabs 15 hours ago [-]
I might just be a simpleton -- I never had the resolve to try an ambitious project in Clojure. I was not aware that you could get full OOP though, what you are describing feels like yes technically possible but kind of a hack to get inheritance / no type hierarchy enforcement. I'm no expert on the language though
bcrosby95 15 hours ago [-]
I actually disagree. Once you remove the cruft and crap of the involved syntax, good OOP design tends to look damn close to FP design. So I flip your point of view - class based OOP is the hack - despite not really using Clojure or FP in my dayjob or hobby projects anymore. Most fun I had with OOP was definitely Common Lisp though.
andai 16 hours ago [-]
Not sure if I'm reading this right, but the "success rate" table for OpenAI models shows Clojure near the bottom. And if I switch provider to Anthropic, success rate for most languages, including Clojure, goes up dramatically.
gertlabs 15 hours ago [-]
Success rate includes syntax/compilation failures as well as environment rule violations, and is almost entirely from one-shot code generations. Percentile shows how well the working submissions perform.
In long horizon agentic coding evaluations, strong models fix the syntax and percentile and it becomes a direct comparison of which submissions per language performed the best on average. You can filter for that here: https://gertlabs.com/rankings?provider=openai&mode=agentic_c...
drob518 12 hours ago [-]
> I personally find OOP to be the most intuitive for large scale systems design, but that's just me.
At one point, I was the same. But after going functional in Clojure, I can’t imagine going back. Using maps nd just having common functions that transform data into different data is definitely the way to go. This is with your time:
https://youtu.be/aSEQfqNYNAc
jimbokun 12 hours ago [-]
Functional is far more comfortable to me. Trying to model all that state spread through out your program with no way to really isolate it or just reason about a small part of the program at a time, I find very stressful.
I found this to be one of the more interesting talks I've watched.
Like you (I think) - I love functional languages.
But there's a problem I can't really figure out how to articulate where they reach a level where they stop "just working" imo. Maybe it's just me being too dumb.
I wonder if the author is familiar with Smalltalk - it has a very small syntax. In some ways so does Lisp, in other ways it has more than every other language, depending on what you think about operators versus functions.
acdw 11 hours ago [-]
I have heard of Smalltalk and it is intriguing but honestly I don't even know how to get started with it lol
smitty1e 15 hours ago [-]
"Lua: everything is a table
Tcl: everything is a string
Lisp: everything is a list"
Python: {"everything":"dictionary"}
roshanroyj 8 hours ago [-]
I am able to see the link just fine.
shevy-java 5 hours ago [-]
;; This is real syntax!
(loop for k being the hash-keys
using (hash-value v) of hash-table
...)
Still lisp. Although the blog author has a point -
clojure is probably cleaner lisp than common lisp.
I think the issue is heavily due to syntax though.
Naturally the (())()()()(), but I think even aside
from the (), the syntax does not seem super-efficient
to me. Perhaps I have spent too much time with ruby
and python, but it feels as if lisp is a legacy
regression, purely syntax-wise.
zuzululu 13 hours ago [-]
Thats nice but not many jobs for it
escargot4000 12 minutes ago [-]
Give it up devs, we're all making WordPress sites now because there's loads of them
jimbokun 12 hours ago [-]
If that’s your concern you don’t need to be concerned with any technical quality of any language. Just count job postings by language and learn the one with the highest value.
zuzululu 12 hours ago [-]
if there isn't any jobs for it it probably doesn't have the appeal or communicate economic value
regularfry 19 minutes ago [-]
The question is appeal to whom. Large employers want you to learn popular languages so that you're a commodity in a liquid market. But that's not a signal of economic value; it's the reverse. It's saying "I'm entirely replaceable."
What you can predict is that those employers for whom clojure (or any other minority language) is either acceptable or preferred are deciding that they don't want commodity, low-margin employees. It's a signal that they prefer not to buy the mass-market offering, and ought to expect to pay a premium.
What that means is that if your only way of finding jobs is to be one of the mass-market crowd, you're unlikely to find a premium-paying employer because that's not where they're looking.
yolkedgeek 2 hours ago [-]
Jobs and market have a huge factor of
1. politics
2. synergy
Almost the only reason that python is popular and people do everything with it is synergy. The only reason that javascript is eating the world and any web dev has to know it, and people do everything with it is synergy.
A big reason for C# to have popularity is because it's for Microsoft (politics).
These are just some examples. Being used doesn't mean anything.
There were and still are a ton of PHP jobs. You tell me, is it because PHP is a great language and solves our problems? No, because it has synergy.
If you're good enough, you can pretty much choose what language/framework you work in.
Hammershaft 8 hours ago [-]
Clojure programmers tend to be some of the highest paid[1] on average of any language, so I'd lean more towards a lack of appeal.
Other than that, I agree, CL is baroque yet needs some hole filling here and there.
> Lisp: everything is a list
But that's wrong. Not even a little. Unless you mean LISP 1.5...
> Too much syntax
Funnily, I'm mostly okay with the new vector/set/hash-table literals, my big problem and that of some other people is the use of vectors in macros/special operators instead of lists. `(let [a b] ...)` instead of `(let (a b) ...)` is _not_ okay.
midnight_eclair 4 hours ago [-]
> `(let [a b] ...)` instead of `(let (a b) ...)` is _not_ okay
it is however quite consistent, clojure uses vector form for most macros that require a "control" form before a "data" form: argument list in defn, names list in let, iteration descriptors in for, etc. you get used to consistency quite easily.
y1n0 16 hours ago [-]
I haven’t used clojure in quite a while but what’s the issue with (let [a b] …)?
Is (let (a b) …) even valid clojure?
acdw 10 hours ago [-]
In CL and Scheme, it's (let ((var1 val) (var2 val)) body...).
So parentheses are used for grouping and function/macro application.
In Clojure, parens are just used for application, so you have e.g.
(let [var1 val var2 val] body...), or (defn foo [x] ..) or (cond testa 1 testb 2 ...).
It takes some getting used to, and I do wish Clojure would do something more like
(let [[var1 val] [var2 val]] ... .. though of course then you'd have to figure something else out for destructuring.
everforward 15 hours ago [-]
I believe it would be (let ‘(a b)), but I’m not sure if that’s valid or not. That’s how Racket does its version of defn
draw_down 4 hours ago [-]
[dead]
Rendered at 13:56:49 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
If he means navigating the AST, there is Parinfer: https://shaunlebron.github.io/parinfer/
Paredit / Parinfer ruined other languages for me. It lets you navigate up/down/in/out of the Clojure AST with keyboard commands and mutate those expressions, e.g. "Split" will split open the current data structure you're in: `(a| b)` =Split=> `(a)| (b)`, where | is caret. Join is the inverse, and it works for all data structures.
As everyone knows, you are not a true lisper until you have written your own static site generator.
It gave me such a great high with how easy it was to add my own "templating engine" on top, implemented all using macros. The downside is that the crash came hard; there is so much more to a good static site generator such as optimizing the output, supporting scoped CSS, server-side rendering of SPA framework components, and of course integration with the Node ecosystem (for better or for worse there is just so much useful stuff). I have since moved over to Astro. It's still fascinating how far I was able to push my own SSG all by myself though.
I think that part is quite normal. I use ruby for the same purpose, though the only difference is that the code I use is also to be used for dynamic websites at the same time (cgi, rack, sinatra, in theory ruby on rails but I just can't stand rails and DHH these days, so I am in the opposition crowd). Using static websites, though, always feel as if I have significantly less flexibility. I do generate some static .html files as well, but they feel less useful to me, aside from being displayed faster, of course.
For the most part, any Clojure code which doesn't use host interop will work on all dialects. Clojure also has support for conditional code, depending on the current dialect.
This is one of Clojure's superpowers.
Currently, we have Clojure, ClojureScript, ClojureCLR, Babashka, Basilisp, Phel, and jank running the test suite.
I have only used Clojure, ClojureScript, and Babashka in production. But I am the creator of jank.
I too liked Clojure when I tried it some years ago (agreed on the composition and data structures; both are _great_). But the real value-add is in the runtime, not the syntax. Java has a solid runtime but it's not yet as good as Erlang's, maybe even not up to the standards of Golang -- I am talking concurrency / parallelism here (for memory management I have no doubts Java is very good). And I know: green threads and stuff. Well, call me when you can do what Erlang / Golang can do. Then I'll look again, very seriously too.
Programming language syntax scarcely matters. It does to some extent but we the programmers tend to over-romanticize it. The runtime and its properties are the much better thing to optimize for.
Yes and no. From the discussion here I've learned about the existence of jank, which wouldn't have come up a year or so ago and might be an interesting solution to a problem for me as it evolves (that problem mainly being me not wanting to use C++ or any of the other directly supported languages in a plugin ecosystem). So these things are worth bubbling up every now and again just for the discussion to have a chance to play out.
LISP is much more than just a runtime syntax, such as its distinct evaluation model and metalinguistic core.
The JVM was chosen for Clojure because of its reach and vast ecosystem. People have ported Clojure to other runtimes, even Beam (Clojerl), where it enjoys decent success, too.
Still want Erlang's runtime though i.e. the many green threads with share-nothing architecture that can communicate with each other.
Clojure brings more than syntax though... there's an opinionated take on making all data structures immutable (as in, structural sharing [1]) by default. That's a huge difference in how you architect the program and debug it.
[1] https://softwarepatternslexicon.com/clojure/core-concepts-of...
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LFE_(programming_language)
Love the idea of LFE but it needs a bigger ecosystem.
I always wished clojerl took off.
It has footguns, sure, but with library support and discipline it can get you very far.
To me it's embarrassing that PLs still tout syntax and various other goodies, completely glossing over runtime. I might be missing something. But faux humble statements aside, I feel many others are the ones who miss something -- and that's the fact that doing stuff in parallel is a fact of life for 20+ years now and it's time all popular PL runtimes finally wake up to that fact.
If not, I am simply not considering them. And I am not saying that arrogantly though it sounds that way; there are some PLs that I _really_ liked and was almost heart-broken that I had to abandon them and not work professionally with them. But I have enough experience to know that runtime choice matters, a lot.
For the record, Racket was one of those PLs I abandoned. I know they started working on parallelism some years ago but I had to make a decision next week back then so, Elixir + Golang + Rust it is for me.
won't lie, this is hilarious. you got me from nodding along to being the spitting out food meme guy in a span of couple seconds.
JVM runtime is undeniably the most well researched and optimized runtime in history of runtimes, specifically in realm of concurrency and parallelism, it literally carries like half the world on it's back.
not to throw any shade on erlang vm - i've been a fan for well more than a decade, but other than making some interesting, but limited in practice, tradeoffs with regard to concurrency architecture, it doesn't really offer much more.
go's runtime is just a different beast altogether designed with different goals in mind and with no baggage of backward compatibility with legacy.
one particular detail i'm very grateful to Clojure for, is exactly the ability to use JVM runtime without having to touch any Java.
> Programming language syntax scarcely matters
on the contrary, it matters quite a lot.
you might be drinking some of that AI koolaid, conflating our suddenly hypertrophied abilities to produce code regardless of our familiarity with the syntax or the APIs with ability to produce and deliver good quality products, but this delusion is getting reality check as we speak.
a realization is propagating through the industry that being able to produce more code than you're able to review, comprehend and internalize is actually not a great thing.
and that's where syntax matters - it has to be high signal/noise, it has to expose you to right abstractions and it has to be pliable to allow the codebase reflect the problem in a way that minimizes cognitive load both during production and during consumption.
LLMs are language models and syntax is a crucial part of any language.
Regarding language syntax, it definitely matters. In the same way the vocabulary we use shapes our thoughts, the expression of a programming language shapes the implementation. Of course, as Clojurists know all too well, it's entirely possible to write Java in any language!
Syntax does not matter simply because it's an extremely leaky abstraction of the runtime below, is my point.
Of course syntax must be high signal/noise ratio, I believe every reasonable programmer will agree. But many are making entire careers in PLs where that's not the case. Hence, in practice it does not seem to matter much, for the better or the worse.
RE: runtime, try and pay attention to the parameters given in my comments. I specifically acknowledged that the JVM is a great and mature runtime but it's lagging behind on STM / actor capabilities. Tearing down a straw man is not impressive and it comes across as you trying to gain visibility by deliberately misrepresenting your discussion opponent's arguments.
apologies, but maybe next time try to elaborate more on sweeping statements like "syntax doesn't matter", because in current context my assumption for why you would say that is not all that outrageous.
> Syntax does not matter simply because it's an extremely leaky abstraction of the runtime below, is my point.
that would be the reason why syntax does matter, wouldn't it? nobody wants leaky abstractions!
ironically, Clojure is a great example of a hosted language that does not leak much in terms of underlying runtime, as evidenced by the fact that it has been implemented on top of a variety of runtimes with decent control over cross-runtime code reuse.
> acknowledged that the JVM is a great and mature runtime but it's lagging behind on STM / actor capabilities
you're stating this as if it's a fact, but what is your evidence? afaik jvm has a very extensive actor model library (Akka) and clojure does include a solid STM implementation (https://clojure.org/reference/refs).
the reality is that both of these approaches to concurrency are simply not popular enough, so your grievances with JVM for (allegedly!) lacking some important features relevant to them are not in sync with the demand.
> Tearing down a straw man is not impressive and it comes across as you trying to gain visibility by deliberately misrepresenting your discussion opponent's arguments.
don't debate-bro me bro, there are no straw men and no misrepresentations of your messages. if there are invalid assumptions - it's because instead of turning this into a dozen-messages-deep interrogation of what you really meant, i'm taking shortcuts and assuming what i believe is most plausible interpretation.
Pinning can still happen in some much more rare cases, same with go. For example, FFI.
The memory usage, performance, etc are all go like. You can spawn millions of virtual threads with hardly and memory requirements and without overburdening the OS with context switches. The JVM also enjoys faster GC performance with virtual threads.
https://docs.oracle.com/en/java/javase/21/core/virtual-threa...
Elixir / Golang can do this very well. And they do. I have supervised, led and authored such projects that are in production to this day.
Rust too but it's lower-level and you kind of have to hand-roll OTP which of course will always fail.
if your accepting layer is abstracted away and implemented correctly, there is very little performance difference between different concurrency approaches and all you're exposed to as developer is implementation of your handler functions.
although this is a deliberate choice rather than some accidental defect. Clojure went with STM as its concurrency model, if you're not buying into that and you want an Actor-centric language it's not the right choice to begin with.
I'm not sure I understand this argument. Java and Clojure share a runtime, but an idiomatic Java codebase is going to have a very different architecture and design to an idiomatic Clojure codebase. Conversely, a codebase written in Go may end up looking very similar to a codebase written in Java, despite using different runtimes.
As mentioned, I did like Clojure. I'd switch to it if it was running inside the Erlang runtime (like Elixir does).
F.ex. if you have an universal construct of green threads / fibers then 7 PLs could express it 7 different ways, yet underneath they'd all be the same.
So focusing on the runtime's guarantees doesn't seem like a practicality focused argument to me.
Furthermore, if you trace my comments, you'll see that I had to choose PLs years ago (12+ to be precise). Things were quite different at the time. Java might have almost caught up today; back then we couldn't even be certain `synchronized` is stable all the time. Just saying.
Scala did very well then, judging by your words. I could probably offer a loose analogy to Typescript as well; while it does compile to JS underneath, they added a stricter layer that makes programming in it more deterministic and stable. (Not the same thing because my main point was "runtime" but hey, show me a perfect analogy.)
You are free to say your last sentence. I am free to disagree. My practice has shown me that runtimes bleed into syntax almost always. Exceptions exist, sure.
Syntax determines what parts of a language are within easy reach, and therefore affects how programmers use the language. Tools that a syntax make easy are used often; tools that syntax makes hard are used infrequently. This indirectly impacts how a piece of software is designed.
All Clojure (lisps) do is remove the stupidity of syntax.
Even if syntax is the minor thing, why wear a stupid, uncomfortable shirt while running when you could wear one so comfortable you scarcely feel it?
The ergonomics of using a proper REPL and interactive programming is hard to beat.
Nothing wrong with that, it's a good thing that stuff is discovered anew [as opposed to being lost/forgotten], but it did bring a smile to me.
But that really depends on what you're doing. For example if I'm not mistaken Amazon was run for a very long time on a Java backend. And so was GMail's backend (and back then GMail's frontend was, IIRC, Java converted to JavaScript using GWT).
And by "early Amazon" and "early GMail", we're already talking about massive scale. It's not as if the JVM got worse since then (as someone commented: a recent addition is that Clojure now use Java's virtual threads) and it's not as if it didn't scale.
So I'd say having Clojure on top of Java (for those using that Clojure: there's also ClojureScript, babashka, etc.) ain't really a problem, as long as you're fine with the occasional Java stacktrace and Java ecosystem (GP mentions that btw: that he's not familiar with Java and that, I think, can be a bit of an issue).
I'm not sure Clojure is about it's syntax: I like the focus on immutability / pure functions and I do really dig the REPL a huge lot. In addition to that something has to be said as to the incredible stability of the language and many of its libraries.
The big value add to me is that I can have a REPL and inspect, in dev (or in prod but that'd be wild), the app I'm working on. And manipulate it: redefining variables and functions etc. And it's not some hacky hot-reloading bolted on as an afterthought kludge: it's a real Lisp REPL. There's value in that IMO.
Elixir also offers LiveBooks i.e. you can create pre-made recipes with which you directly remote into your staging / prod and do stuff.
All that with immutability and potentially 6 digits of actors / green threads with a share-nothing architecture.
---
RE: early Amazon / Google, sure. They made do with what they had and it was and still is a heroic effort. But can we agree that they succeeded _despite_ the numerous warts and defects of the PLs and their runtimes at the time? Not _because_ of them?
I feel that people latch onto the misleading "they succeeded with language X and are big, hence the language X is great" thing way too often. No. It's not true. The only thing that follows from "big company A made it big with language X" is: "company A has an amazing engineering team". Nothing else.
Certainly it matters much less in the modern era.
However, certain fundamental decisions of a language can be dealbreakers.
Requiring declarations on your functions and giving those declarations sigils so that they can be parsed quickly is an important syntax decision. Almost every modern programming language has converged to this idea.
Or take, for example, Lua. For me, personally, the 1-based-ness of Lua is simply a dealbreaker no matter how good anything else about it is.
For the "Lisps", I LOATHE the fact that you traverse lists and vectors in completely different ways--you can't just drop any container-ish thing into something that iterates/collects it. This is something that both Clojure and Racket seem to agree on--you have something that acts like a "collection" and you can walk across it the same way regardless of the specific type of collection it is. Of course, that is why a bunch of Lisp purists loathe Clojure and Racket while I like those languages. Shrug.
I find RAII (Resource acquisition is initialization) to be the source of all things evil if it infests a programming language. The popularity of C++ and Rust speaks to the quite large number of people who think my opinion is bullshit.
So, yeah, base syntax matters far less than it used to. But the engineering decisions that went into making that syntax correspondingly are far more important.
Whether it is good for any kind of resource acquisition to look the same like an initialization is debatable.
On the other hand, I cannot see any counterargument to the principle that releasing any resources should not be done explicitly, but only implicitly, upon leaving a block (using reference counts for shared resources).
I doubt that you advocate for the use of explicit release commands for resources, which are a notorious source of bugs, so what is that you consider as not being the same as RAII?
RAII was a not very useful acronym that was just another form to say that the C or C++ programmers should never use the PL/I style of explicit free commands, despite the availability of functions like "free()" or "close()" in the standard library, but both memory and files and any other kinds of resources should be managed with automatic releasing.
I do not see how this sound principle can infest any language.
Obviously, I have seen examples of bad RAII implementations, like I have seen examples of misuse for any other programming principle.
Those are not the only choices.
Garbage collection is at one end of the spectrum--fully manually managed is at the other end of the spectrum. There is also another axis of acquiring/releasing allocation by object or acquiring/releasing object by pool. And, if you have it, there is the axis of allocate only at startup and never free until end of thread/application vs. allocate only at a frame of of time and then destroy them all at the next frame vs. allocate whenever and wherever.
RAII encourages the usage of lots of tiny individual objects allocated whenever and wherever all with their own lifetime cycles and makes understanding the memory usage of your application very difficult (this was the whole reason Rust was made--C and C++ made managing memory in Firefox ridiculously diffused and impossible to corral).
And, I'll be blunt, I think that Rust/Zig/C3 etc. are not the right direction in spite of the fact that I use Zig a lot. I think that the garbage collected languages cede far too much in terms of performance to the compiled ones and GC languages (like say OCaml) should be being used for systems programming more often.
For example, I think we would all be in much better shape against AI vulnerability scanners if more systems programs were in GC-type languages.
(I very much agree on Lua btw.)
Personally I am very disheartened. Surely algebraic data types should be universally a good thing and all PLs should gradually adopt them? But no, endless HN / Reddit threads bike-shedding.
Oh well.
https://clojure.org/about/dynamic
Until you get better at not making mistakes that the training wheels of a static type system “protect” you from, lean into the REPL as a means to build up small correct expressions into larger ones.
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This is why I am found of the community, the symbiotic approach of two language communities working together.
I’m not quite sure what this means. How is it different/worse than all parens..?
fyi I use paredit and just hit ) and it moves me past any kind of paren/bracket. But even without that you can just hit left and right..?
It’s easier if everything is parens, just hit paren til the errors are gone.
That’s making me really thankful to be a paredit user.
But I was talking about like, when refactoring, I'll maybe change something from a list to a vector, and I have to change the delimiters at front and back. Or, where electric-pair does do the move-past-all-parens thing when I just spam ), it doesn't do that with ]}]}]]}}]})).
Have you ever tried paredit? It’s pretty much a lifesaver for this kind of thing.
Most models do not perform particularly well in Clojure, but OpenAI models fully utilize the power of the language. Subjectively, it kind of seems to match the personality. Data at https://gertlabs.com/rankings?provider=openai
The beauty of Clojure shines through when you want to change something that cuts through a large part of a large project. If you are using mutable data, you may end up with many bugs from various pieces of code mutating objects inconsistently. With Clojure, if someone hands you data, you can't possibly break some distant piece of code by updating an object: it's just not possible because you only ever make fast, updated copies. The more complicated your codrbase gets, the more this benefit is realized.
I actually kind of think of it as an easier mechanism with similar outcomes to Rust's borrow checker. Only one piece of code ever owns the data so things end up much safer. However it is way easier to use IMHO because you just know that zero people own anything and everyone can read everything.
It also makes converting some code to be multi-threaded extremely easily and with some constraints guaranteeably correct.
Lots of dovetailing features neatly put together for both clarity and less bugs and more usable cores which are probably sitting idle.
Once you're more comfortable with it and want to try a typed functional programming language, I highly recommend checking OCaml (or SML, if you're into old school tech) and see how the Module Functors are applied, most software will look extremely over-engineered after you write a few functors. It's the feature I miss the most when coding in F# or Gleam, for instance.
An LLM is only as good as its feedback loop. If your LLM can actually test the code it writes, it's going to be much more effective. Static types are a form of feedback (if it can use the LSP), unit/integration tests are another.
Clojure has an exceptionally good repl. LLMs can eval any piece of any function. They can test out functions they aren't familiar with. They can fetch data, try out different arguments, try different approaches before committing to one. They can query a database (read-only connection, of course), look at the result, fetch data from an API, and stitch it all together. It can even hook into your running program and debug it from the inside out!!
It makes it so much more effective at using libraries or paradigms that it isn't trained on. In my experience, hooking an LLM up to the clojure repl lets it write WAY more complex stuff. I'm talking like 10x more complex programs with zero errors, cause it can literally try it out every little piece before putting it together. It's like watching a human programming. But like, really fast.
Sorry I get a little ranty when clojure + LLMs come up, because I don't think most people realize what they're missing out on. It's crazy stuff. It's also easy peasy if you use vscode. There's an extension called calva-backseat-driver that just hooks it all up for you. Gives copilot access to the repl, and I think it exposes an mcp if you want to give claude access too.
Do you have an idea as to why that is?
If I had to guess, two things lowering reliability:
A) Balancing parens might be tough on an LLM one-shot.
B) LLMs generate tokens sequentially, but s-expressions mean the first forms to be evaluated in a body are usually the last to be written, so the LLM has to sequentially generate layers of evaluation backwards.
This also doesn't hurt the code from a human reader's point of view.
From my point of view, Clojure is a very successful language. It has been in stable development for >10 years now, with no major breaking changes (!). I was able to start a business using it and now make a living from it, all of it possible largely because Clojure reduces incidental complexity so much.
Now, as to LLMs, I can see this discussion is mostly theoretical, so let me pitch in with data. I've been using LLMs for Clojure for a while now and it works fantastically, from what I read about other languages, quite a bit better for me than for others. Balancing parens was a problem for early LLMs without tools, Claude Opus with clojure-mcp tools doesn't encounter that problem at all.
Additionally, the ability to try things in the REPL means that LLMs are very effective: all hypotheses and solutions are immediately tested, with automatic feedback.
Overall I get great value from LLMs and I am able to solve large problems with them.
What would you say is missing from Clojure for large-scale OOP design? As I understand, Clojure gives you OOP a la carte. Objects (via maps/records/structs), polymorphic dispatch (via multimethods/protocols/case), types (via Malli/TypedClojure), inheritance (via derived, isa?, etc), some encapsulation (via defn-/^:private)...
For static (partial) typing, I instead use Malli schemas. I do this for every larger Clojure program I make, because there's always something that needs paranoia, or it's handy to generate example data.
In long horizon agentic coding evaluations, strong models fix the syntax and percentile and it becomes a direct comparison of which submissions per language performed the best on average. You can filter for that here: https://gertlabs.com/rankings?provider=openai&mode=agentic_c...
At one point, I was the same. But after going functional in Clojure, I can’t imagine going back. Using maps nd just having common functions that transform data into different data is definitely the way to go. This is with your time: https://youtu.be/aSEQfqNYNAc
I found this to be one of the more interesting talks I've watched.
Like you (I think) - I love functional languages.
But there's a problem I can't really figure out how to articulate where they reach a level where they stop "just working" imo. Maybe it's just me being too dumb.
Tcl: everything is a string
Lisp: everything is a list"
Python: {"everything":"dictionary"}
I think the issue is heavily due to syntax though. Naturally the (())()()()(), but I think even aside from the (), the syntax does not seem super-efficient to me. Perhaps I have spent too much time with ruby and python, but it feels as if lisp is a legacy regression, purely syntax-wise.
What you can predict is that those employers for whom clojure (or any other minority language) is either acceptable or preferred are deciding that they don't want commodity, low-margin employees. It's a signal that they prefer not to buy the mass-market offering, and ought to expect to pay a premium.
What that means is that if your only way of finding jobs is to be one of the mass-market crowd, you're unlikely to find a premium-paying employer because that's not where they're looking.
Almost the only reason that python is popular and people do everything with it is synergy. The only reason that javascript is eating the world and any web dev has to know it, and people do everything with it is synergy.
A big reason for C# to have popularity is because it's for Microsoft (politics).
These are just some examples. Being used doesn't mean anything.
There were and still are a ton of PHP jobs. You tell me, is it because PHP is a great language and solves our problems? No, because it has synergy.
If you're good enough, you can pretty much choose what language/framework you work in.
[1] https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2019#technology-_-what-langu...
do a search for indeed jobs
Eh? That's completely lifted from CL (https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_seq...). Same for AREF/NTH, there's ELT.
Other than that, I agree, CL is baroque yet needs some hole filling here and there.
> Lisp: everything is a list
But that's wrong. Not even a little. Unless you mean LISP 1.5...
> Too much syntax
Funnily, I'm mostly okay with the new vector/set/hash-table literals, my big problem and that of some other people is the use of vectors in macros/special operators instead of lists. `(let [a b] ...)` instead of `(let (a b) ...)` is _not_ okay.
it is however quite consistent, clojure uses vector form for most macros that require a "control" form before a "data" form: argument list in defn, names list in let, iteration descriptors in for, etc. you get used to consistency quite easily.
Is (let (a b) …) even valid clojure?
It takes some getting used to, and I do wish Clojure would do something more like (let [[var1 val] [var2 val]] ... .. though of course then you'd have to figure something else out for destructuring.