That's a real shame. I am involved with some history-related projects and the number of websites which go offline is huge, and the wayback machine is incredibly helpful for unearthing these dead sites.
It is not hard to imagine a future in 50 years time where a huge percentage of this content is lost forever, or at best incredibly hard to find.
horacemorace 4 minutes ago [-]
This future is here already, policy makers have it locked up. Any person who remembers what microfiche is understands the magnitude of this problem of not having a trustworthy public record.
If we extended public policy from the library era, the library of congress itself would be the Internet Archive.
xp84 2 minutes ago [-]
> "as profit margins for news thin, it’s only become more important to news publishers to protect their intellectual property."
So their argument is that people who would be paying money at their paywalls, are going to IA to get their news for free? And if they can thwart those people, they'll show up and become monthly subscribers?
I am vaguely sympathetic to newspapers as a concept, though the actually owners of approximately all of them are just PE companies looking to extract maximum profit from this dying industry, not really trying to prolong their existence.
But I think everyone who is interested in subscribing to their newspapers' paywalls already has subscribed. Those of us who bypass paywalls with that archive.whatever site, or apparently IA (I have never tried it for this purpose) are doing so because there is zero chance we're going to (recurringly!) pay the asking price for some random out-of-town newspaper, The Verge, Bloomberg, whatever. It's fair game to call us immoral for that decision, but if (and it's a big if) this move prevents more people from being able to bypass a paywall, I predict zero incremental dollars will go to the news publishers.
b00ty4breakfast 10 minutes ago [-]
Of course they are, because they are not primarily concerned with the reporting of noteworthy events. They are most worried about profit with the secondary goal of reporting but only insofar as it serves the first goal. This is a wider trend across many industries.
Obviously, a business needs to have an income but it's becoming more common for businesses to function first and foremast as revenue generators and the thing that enables that is only seen as a means to an end. When the quality of the product/service and it's function as a revenue generator diverge, the product/service will always take 2nd chair.
Maybe we could argue that the primary product is the revenue, especially when there are investors involved who are looking for big returns.
frmersdog 2 minutes ago [-]
As good a time as any to remind people that the Southern Strategy was never really all that Southern:
Historically-speaking, if your local news can twist the context to make you easier to sell to (products, services, ideologies), they will do that.
wormius 43 minutes ago [-]
Ugh - our local paper used to have a wonderful archive, that got limited and locked down after the pandemic. IDK if they got bought out, but it's a real shame, I think some of the problem is things that used to be public information (birthdates, families, names) in hospital admissions (I found old entries of my friends parents and my own for being "in the hospital" in the newspaper for example).
I'm sure that plays a role, but still... This obviously is about cost and money making, not security as a whole (ime)
svachalek 1 hours ago [-]
There really should be a micropayments setup on the internet that's not advertising based. Let these models pay a nickel to read the article, covered by the multi trillion dollar AI blank check.
poisonfountain 17 minutes ago [-]
Cloudflare is trying to push for that, but every time it's mentioned people complain (because they hate Cloudflare for making them wait 2s for a captcha) and nobody proposes an alternative solution. I don't think this is going to happen, unfortunately, and the internet will get silo-ed into oblivion.
andrepd 1 hours ago [-]
There's a river of cash flowing to the pockets of the wealthy and to the megalomaniac projects of hyperscaler, but not to drip a few pennies onto the pockets of people providing such an important public service as journalists.
sandeepkd 60 minutes ago [-]
I think its bound to happen and in some ways it a good thing to happen too. The current state of AI affairs is a lot about outrightly selling some one else's intellectual property. The short term incentives are eroding the trust and goodwill among the natural knowledge actors.
The next natural thing to happen would be privatization or consolidation of the internet itself. Its already happening in the form of grabbing and consolidating IPv4 addresses.
drtz 28 minutes ago [-]
> The current state of AI affairs is a lot about outrightly selling some one else's intellectual property.
Blocking archiving in a flailing attempt to keep AIs away is extremely shortsighted. Archiving is important for keeping historical context, especially when it comes to news and journalism.
sandeepkd 21 minutes ago [-]
There is a natural flow of information that allows the information producers to make money for their work. How do you expect that the information producers would be even able to continue to create information when the they are not getting paid anymore.
One possible solution that I can think of for the long term good could be to just allow archival, no retrieval of the latest information, at-least for 6 months or a year. This should theoretically allow most goals.
ronsor 20 minutes ago [-]
[dead]
evanjrowley 12 minutes ago [-]
They should allow access after the news becomes old. That's what the archive is intended for.
acidhousemcnab 1 hours ago [-]
Perhaps I imagined this, however some months ago on X someone pointed out a historical article on dailymail.co.uk related to Prince Phillip and Epstein had been scrubbed, which likely would be intelligence or through D-Notices, but where instead of showing a 404 page would redirect to an article that was similar but benign. I checked the URL on the Wayback Machine and it turned up zero results, but not even the redirected article, however the user on X had screen grabbed the original, which everyone was reading and commenting on. As of 21st May I can't find this discussion on X and Grok denies it ever existed. This is a "maximally truth-finding" AI, so I must be mistaken. Perhaps the Internet Archive cannot be trusted, so this is why 340 local news outlets need to limit access.
grosswait 49 minutes ago [-]
This sounds like the beginning of a story where the next odd thing is your family and friends don’t know who you are, and know one has ever heard of you.
flippant 1 hours ago [-]
Apologies for the self-promo. Downvote and I'll know not to do it again.
This trend of outright banning the Internet Archive has me extremely worried. I fear a future where news articles are memoryholed, and no one can remember exactly what was reported and how sensational it all seemed.
I've been working on this project [0] for a while. Originally, I started with a tool that would allow people to snapshot webpages in their own browser, and they could selectively share their snapshots. Then by consensus, everyone could understand what exactly had changed, and they could draw their own conclusion about why.
While working on it, I realized that an authoritative answer to "what did it look like on $DATE" can't be produced by a no-name company. It's gotta be a non-commercial entity that's got a track record of integrity. The dream would be to allow MemoryHole customers to submit their snapshots to the Internet Archive (or other non-commercial entity). It's definitely a copyright nightmare - so no clue how this could work.
> It's definitely a copyright nightmare - so no clue how this could work.
It could work as a decentralized free and open source system that doesn't care about copyright. Like how torrents work now, but it would be good to have it work over Tor or something. Perhaps as a DAO for the management aspect of it. I don't know how exactly. But disregarding copyright by using a centralized company is the wrong idea.
Or you can do the lawful approach and try to work within the framework of that copyright nightmare. But "fuck copyright" is an easier path.
RobRivera 7 minutes ago [-]
Tor is a honeypot run my government intel operations. Don't use it.
iamalizard 4 minutes ago [-]
Please provide evidence for such strong claims. Otherwise it's just FUD.
entropie 29 minutes ago [-]
You - as a company - can just avoid any copyright stuff when your extension saves the stuff only on the client. I see there are many other issues then.
The torrent approach is nice. I could imagine a selfhosted way to store the data (for a group of people)
flippant 18 minutes ago [-]
> I could imagine a selfhosted way to store the data (for a group of people)
Linkwarden does this well. You can share a collection for a small group of people.
Is there a way to export/download my saves in a reasonable way?
28 minutes ago [-]
flippant 27 minutes ago [-]
Thank you! Yes, you just get a zip file with all of your saved pages.
It looks like this:
├── files
│ └── 632daffb-2f4f-4795-bb4d-3149d24f4264
│ ├── original.html
│ ├── readerview.html
│ └── screenshot.png
├── manifest.json
└── metadata.csv
jmclnx 2 hours ago [-]
Maybe they should allow the Internet Archive access to their article after a week or 2.
But I think this will hurt them as time goes on more then help. IIRC, one news org blocked free access and their revenue fell. I think that was in Australia.
But seems they are using AI as the reason. So allowing after a week will not avoid AI access.
But, what happens of an AI Company subscribes to the news site using a person's name (or a fake name) ? They will still get the article and avoid hassles.
celsoazevedo 1 hours ago [-]
It may be easier to convince them if the Internet Archive doesn't allow access for <period of time>. Not good for the average user now, but at least it would be archived for the future. Better than having no archive at all.
fragmede 36 minutes ago [-]
Yeah IA needs to get their heads out of their asses and just do that. It's an archive, but if it's available at the same time as it's relevant, then it's being used as alternate access.
ranger_danger 2 hours ago [-]
That sounds like a good idea to me.
One of the tests for Fair Use in the US, as I understand it, would be whether the archived work "competes" with the original.
If people start going to IA instead to read the news, the newspaper might have a claim. But if they're doing it to get around paywalls, or purely for archival/historical/research purposes, that may be allowed.
But the reality is such decisions are subjective and will be up to whatever judge happens to get such a case in front of them if this is challenged.
PaulHoule 49 minutes ago [-]
In general judges seem to understand that the copyright holder has some interest in these situations but not seem to understand that the rest of the community has some rights too.
It is not hard to imagine a future in 50 years time where a huge percentage of this content is lost forever, or at best incredibly hard to find.
So their argument is that people who would be paying money at their paywalls, are going to IA to get their news for free? And if they can thwart those people, they'll show up and become monthly subscribers?
I am vaguely sympathetic to newspapers as a concept, though the actually owners of approximately all of them are just PE companies looking to extract maximum profit from this dying industry, not really trying to prolong their existence.
But I think everyone who is interested in subscribing to their newspapers' paywalls already has subscribed. Those of us who bypass paywalls with that archive.whatever site, or apparently IA (I have never tried it for this purpose) are doing so because there is zero chance we're going to (recurringly!) pay the asking price for some random out-of-town newspaper, The Verge, Bloomberg, whatever. It's fair game to call us immoral for that decision, but if (and it's a big if) this move prevents more people from being able to bypass a paywall, I predict zero incremental dollars will go to the news publishers.
Obviously, a business needs to have an income but it's becoming more common for businesses to function first and foremast as revenue generators and the thing that enables that is only seen as a means to an end. When the quality of the product/service and it's function as a revenue generator diverge, the product/service will always take 2nd chair.
Maybe we could argue that the primary product is the revenue, especially when there are investors involved who are looking for big returns.
https://www.uh.edu/news-events/stories/052815watchingtvracia...
https://www.mediamatters.org/legacy/video-what-happens-when-...
Historically-speaking, if your local news can twist the context to make you easier to sell to (products, services, ideologies), they will do that.
I'm sure that plays a role, but still... This obviously is about cost and money making, not security as a whole (ime)
The next natural thing to happen would be privatization or consolidation of the internet itself. Its already happening in the form of grabbing and consolidating IPv4 addresses.
Blocking archiving in a flailing attempt to keep AIs away is extremely shortsighted. Archiving is important for keeping historical context, especially when it comes to news and journalism.
One possible solution that I can think of for the long term good could be to just allow archival, no retrieval of the latest information, at-least for 6 months or a year. This should theoretically allow most goals.
This trend of outright banning the Internet Archive has me extremely worried. I fear a future where news articles are memoryholed, and no one can remember exactly what was reported and how sensational it all seemed.
I've been working on this project [0] for a while. Originally, I started with a tool that would allow people to snapshot webpages in their own browser, and they could selectively share their snapshots. Then by consensus, everyone could understand what exactly had changed, and they could draw their own conclusion about why.
While working on it, I realized that an authoritative answer to "what did it look like on $DATE" can't be produced by a no-name company. It's gotta be a non-commercial entity that's got a track record of integrity. The dream would be to allow MemoryHole customers to submit their snapshots to the Internet Archive (or other non-commercial entity). It's definitely a copyright nightmare - so no clue how this could work.
[0] - https://memoryhole.app
It could work as a decentralized free and open source system that doesn't care about copyright. Like how torrents work now, but it would be good to have it work over Tor or something. Perhaps as a DAO for the management aspect of it. I don't know how exactly. But disregarding copyright by using a centralized company is the wrong idea.
Or you can do the lawful approach and try to work within the framework of that copyright nightmare. But "fuck copyright" is an easier path.
The torrent approach is nice. I could imagine a selfhosted way to store the data (for a group of people)
Linkwarden does this well. You can share a collection for a small group of people.
https://github.com/linkwarden/linkwarden
Is there a way to export/download my saves in a reasonable way?
It looks like this:
├── files
│ └── 632daffb-2f4f-4795-bb4d-3149d24f4264
│ ├── original.html
│ ├── readerview.html
│ └── screenshot.png
├── manifest.json
└── metadata.csv
But I think this will hurt them as time goes on more then help. IIRC, one news org blocked free access and their revenue fell. I think that was in Australia.
But seems they are using AI as the reason. So allowing after a week will not avoid AI access.
But, what happens of an AI Company subscribes to the news site using a person's name (or a fake name) ? They will still get the article and avoid hassles.
One of the tests for Fair Use in the US, as I understand it, would be whether the archived work "competes" with the original.
If people start going to IA instead to read the news, the newspaper might have a claim. But if they're doing it to get around paywalls, or purely for archival/historical/research purposes, that may be allowed.
But the reality is such decisions are subjective and will be up to whatever judge happens to get such a case in front of them if this is challenged.
Redditors then had the gall to pretend like it wasn’t their number one use case.