A year ago, I got my 8 y/o a landline (we used Ooma). It has been absolutely wonderful.
By far the best thing is that he makes his own playdates. I'm not the middleman anymore. He just makes plans and asks me if it's ok. And if his friend doesn't have a landline, I let him call their parent. It surprises them, but when he leaves a message, they love it. He's definitely had more time with friends because of it.
Another funny thing was he complained about writing a thank you note, so we said "OK, the alternative is that you have to call them". He called them, had a nice conversation, and thanked them. Honestly, it was better than a thank you note.
It's been one of the best purchases we're made. I feel some hope this will delay the eventual begging for a smart phone because he's able to do the most critical thing, connect with friends.
mikepurvis 5 hours ago [-]
My 9 and 12 year old share a "kid" phone that's just a hand-me-down parent phone. This partially meets that need, but it still gets used for way too much unsupervised YouTube time.
The thing for me that has really unlocked voice-based socializing has been the 12 year old jumping on Discord with his buddies from school. I feel like this mirrors well how I myself chat with my adult male friends—it's rarely in the context of just "a call" but rather while doing another activity. So when I see him joking around with them while they play Minecraft or whatever, that feels like it's a reasonable pattern for how to sustain friendships.
jkestner 3 hours ago [-]
My kid uses a shared Google doc to chat with friends on their school-issued Chromebooks. (But still has the problem of unsupervised screen time.)
Aperocky 4 hours ago [-]
Make me really want to build one for my son when he gets to that age.
If I build it, I can control the full feature set and explain to him how it worked and he'll get the 'cool' factor too. With the raspberry pi I have lying around at home, it doesn't sound impossible!
philips 30 minutes ago [-]
It is really straightforward with some cheap hardware and patience. I have another comment on this thread with more breadcrumbs but I used a Fanvil "hotel phone" and voip.ms. Under $50 and an afternoon all in and you have full control.
Aeolun 5 hours ago [-]
This is a good idea. I need to start getting phone numbers from people.
mememememememo 5 hours ago [-]
Do we think a dumb phone Nokia and calls only SIM is just as good (to avoid all the drilling etc. of installing landlines in each kids room?)
jabroni_salad 5 hours ago [-]
Ooma has a wifi box that you plug your handset into. It's not like a POTS where you need to put a jack in every room.
jkestner 3 hours ago [-]
I dug out an old Motofone (the $40 eink candybar) for this reason, only to discover that it’s 2G, which has been decommissioned. Too bad, would’ve been fun to watch the kid learn T9.
mememememememo 3 hours ago [-]
2G to 3G converter ftw!
ale42 16 minutes ago [-]
Is there such a thing? Given it's radio waves in regulated radio spectrum, I'm not sure such a device would even be allowed to operate without a license. This said, there are 3G Nokia dumbphones (e.g. C2-01). I just had to stop using one because my operator tore down the 3G network here, like in most of Europe. (2G was already down since some time).
TheSpiceIsLife 2 hours ago [-]
I believe cordless VoIP phones are still a product one can purchase new.
They need only an electrical outlet for the charge stand.
kleiba 9 minutes ago [-]
> she's found another way to put off getting her [8-year-old] daughter a cellphone
I don't live in the US but my child, who is 9, does not have a cell phone nor does any of his school mates. They "chat" when they see each other in school, or when they hang out together to play after school.
semi-extrinsic 3 hours ago [-]
I "made" something like this 7-8 years ago for our first kid. When I say "made" I mean I bought a "fixed wireless terminal" for $40 on eBay, a classic landline phone for $30, and a cell phone subscription for kids ($5/month). Then I connected the parts, and voila, we had a landline for kids.
Obvious benefits include low cost, full interop with all other phones, and having the kids learn our phone numbers by heart after punching them many times.
philips 28 minutes ago [-]
I made something using a VOIP phone and voip.ms. What provider has a $5/mo kids cell subscription!?
voip.ms is about $1.30/mo with the cost of the phone number (DID) and "minutes".
I have some more breadcrumbs on this thread if you are interested in details on my setup too.
greesil 6 hours ago [-]
I was thinking of doing something like this for text with LoRa. But, having kids I don't have time to do that. This seems really great!
I read the previous discussion, oof:
S04dKHzrKT wrote
Make note of the privacy policy[1]. Some users may not like the data they collect.
> Information Collected from Children: As detailed in Section 3.C, we collect voice audio during calls, call log information, and utilize the Parent-provided contact list in relation to the Child's use of the Tin Can Device. We may also collect device identifiers and technical usage data related to the Service.
Also note that if you buy a Tin Can unit, there's a noncompete clause: You agree not to "build, benchmark, or develop a competing product or service." So don't buy this if you work for a telco, or a voice communications service of any kind.
quesera 5 hours ago [-]
This is laughably unenforceable, and all the more ridiculous for it.
It'd be extremely out of the norm for telco companies. Tin Can uses the calls and voicemails to collect data on children and sell that to others. That has zero to do with lawful interception. The moment Tin Can becomes popular enough you can bet that the government will be snooping those calls too
TheSpiceIsLife 2 hours ago [-]
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closeparen 5 hours ago [-]
This text does not appear in the link. I do see:
>Call Logs: We collect information about calls made using Phones, including the phone numbers you call or receive calls from, the date/time of the calls, and the length of the calls. We also collect network quality metrics and other technical data related to call performance. Please note that we do not record calls.
The version of the privacy policy cited in the previous discussion cited that voice audio is collected for the purposes of forwarding it to the other phone.
autoexec 24 minutes ago [-]
In addition to collecting all the metadata they also collect the voices of children recorded in voicemails.
Their policy says that the information they collect is used to "Send you marketing communications (see the section below for information about how to opt out of these communications at any time)" and to "Monitor and analyze trends, usage, and activities in connection with our Phones and Services, including to generate de-identified, anonymized, or aggregated data" and to "Target advertisements to you on third-party platforms and websites (for more information and to opt out, see the Targeted Advertising and Analytics section below)"
Remember that "de-identified" and "anonymized" is a lie. De-identified data can be re-identified, and anonymized data can be de-anonymized. Often trivially. There are even situations where individuals can be identified from aggregated data.
I was thinking something like an esp32 + mesthastic / LoRa + REST API on the LAN, discoverable via multi cast. The "landline" is a tablet or phone with an app that talks to the esp32. Separately, a parent with the app does the Diffie-Hellman key exchange over SMS, NFC, or some other channel with the friends who also have the app, and you know their identity. The phone app updates the device with the friend's keys, they do the same thing on their end, and voila you're in business. The kids can talk securely, you can read that the kids say via the LAN, no goddamned third parties.
wlesieutre 5 hours ago [-]
I don’t know when that previous comment is from but the text it quotes is not in the linked privacy policy
greesil 4 hours ago [-]
It must have changed in the last 8 months
pcblues 26 minutes ago [-]
This is a nice idea, because it physically limits the place the child can call from. Even a very under-powered phone sets them free.
However, a new severely under-powered phone with no graphics or apps would probably meet the requirements of not being sucked into the grown-up world too early, and the kids can maintain their own contact lists.
And they'll grow super-fast thumbs like we had to in order to text :)
They cost about $50 but are still 4G.
shykes 3 hours ago [-]
I'm a happy Tin Can customer. For young children (5 and 7 in my case) it's especially delightful to give them a measure of autonomy, at an age where they don't yet have a mobile phone. They get to call their friends and family on their own terms, without any safety or "screen time" concerns.
It's especially fun to watch them discover the very concept of a landline: the keypad (they thought it was a pin code); the dial tone; the memorizing and writing down of phone numbers.
5/5 highly recommended.
bit_logic 2 hours ago [-]
Why does it seem like many parents are unaware that a hand me down iPhone can be heavily locked down with screen time settings? A list of things you can do:
- allowed list of apps, can reduce it to just phone, imessage, and utilities like weather app
- effectively permanent downtime, just set the end time less than start time such as 3:00 am to 2:59 am (technically 1 minute of non downtime). This blocks apps except for the allowed apps
- disable installing apps from app store
- disable adding new contacts and block calls and messages not in contact list. This allows parent to control who the phone can be used to contact
- none of these settings can be changed without the screen time pin
- also configure the phone with a minor apple account and add to your family group so you can monitor and control screen time settings from your phone.
So start with a super locked down phone that can only be used to communicate with parents. This is very helpful when they start after school sports. And the phone is so locked down they don't really have any interest in it.
Later when they're older start allowing communication with friends from school. But still only phone and imessage, no other apps. This reinforces that it's a communication device, not for endless scrolling and watching videos.
jrflowers 2 hours ago [-]
I don’t think people are buying this fun novelty landline phone because they haven’t heard of parental controls
light_hue_1 2 hours ago [-]
Parents are aware. This is a horrible solution.
What's going to happen immediately is that kids with equivalent phones will compare, realize that one has a lot of restrictions and the other doesn't, and it becomes a nightmare. They know that all you need to do is unlock it for them.
It's the same mental distinction between "For $200 we'll install rear seat warmers in your Tesla" and "For $200 we'll 'unlock' the already-present rear seat warmers" (that's the only hardware unlock I've ever paid for and I'm still bitter 7 years later).
Fire-Dragon-DoL 2 hours ago [-]
I mean, a landline + phone is way cheaper to be fair
SoftTalker 6 hours ago [-]
> Alarmingly, some Gen Zers don't say "hello" when they answer a phone call; they expect the caller to just start talking.
I'm an older Gen-X and I've stopped doing this unless I recognize the caller. I'm not going to give a scammer anything to build a voice print on. I also use the stock greeting for voicemail instead of a personal one.
mroche 5 hours ago [-]
Y-Zer myself and I do the same thing. I never initiate the communication when called unless I am expecting it or I know who the caller is. Otherwise, they'll know when someone picked up because their side will stop ringing, and they'll only get awkward silence until they start talking. Often times it's an automated voice system that will not begin until prompted by the callee, so it hits a timeout and hangs up.
The number of calls I get where it's either dead silence in the other end or clearly a call center based on the noise can only be categorized as "too much".
myself248 5 hours ago [-]
Also most spam calls seem to just hang up when a call connects to silence.
MattGaiser 6 hours ago [-]
Yes, people think this behaviour came out of nowhere. It’s because if you are younger, phone calls are not the default (only two friends ever call me) and overwhelmingly are scammers or salespeople.
Markoff 1 hours ago [-]
Same here (xennial), it confuses lot of telemarketers out of their script, if someone start talking with me I ask them "do I have contract with you?", if the answer is "no", I hang up, since it's clearly someone selling something.
related call scene from Fight Club how Tyler properly answers the phone (not answering but calling back and his first response is "Who is this?"):
also X, also using generic vm, but thinking of switching to recording of fax machine max volume
senectus1 5 hours ago [-]
I've been actively trying to think of a better way to answer the phone without sounding rude. but without giving up my name or mentally accepting whoever is on the other side (like hello tends to do)
silisili 4 hours ago [-]
I normally don't answer calls I don't recognize the number to, but if I might be expecting a call and have an inkling it might even possibly be spam, I just answer with a short 'ya?'
Slightly rude, but saying nothing at all is just bizarre to me.
Edit to add: One thing I've done for the last decade or so is use a number from an area code I don't live in. Most of my spam calls come from the same area code, so if I see that I know it's spam or a wrong number.
vineyardmike 52 minutes ago [-]
I clear my throat. Do it loud enough that the other end can tell someone is on the line, so they'll know to start the conversation. It isn't a rude "WHAT" type answer, but it doesn't directly acknowledge the caller, and is not inviting a conversation. Its a common enough act that it's not suspicious nor weird to hear during a conversation, and therefore its not off-putting if extended family or clients called from an unknown number.
It doesn't share my voice (for fingerprinting, demographic leak, etc, smh).
Also works as a bot filter - Humans tend to start with a "hello..?" because they're not sure anyone is there, while robots use the non-zero audio as a signal to start talking with full confidence.
philsnow 4 hours ago [-]
Answer it as if somebody had knocked on your front door: "who is it?"
ornornor 3 hours ago [-]
> mentally accepting whoever is on the other side (like hello tends to do)
I don’t get that. How is answering the phone mentally accepting the caller? What does it even mean to mentally accept? Is it that you don’t want to talk? Then let it go to voicemail and decide if you want to call back or not? I think I’m missing the point.
2postsperday 5 hours ago [-]
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Tepix 38 minutes ago [-]
This seems to be begging for a DIY project, doesn't it?
A 3d printed case, a little SoC, perhaps a Raspberry Pi Zero, as the brains with asterisk and some additional open source software providing a web interface running on it.
hellweaver666 16 minutes ago [-]
Would i require some public server side component to handle the call routing etc? (or could you just use something like Google Voice?)
Thanks for linking to it. Folks, before you rush to offer your genius ACKSHUALLY ideas about how Google Voice will let you do "the same thing as Tin Can for free", please, please, think about what GV does and, more importantly, does not (Hint: Whitelist).
ale42 13 minutes ago [-]
Just put a Google Voice line behind a FreePBX or Asterisk and you get all the call filtering you want. You can even make your internal numbers or whatever.
I first found the Tin Can cool, but now seeing their privacy policy, it's definitely nothing for me. I'd just use a normal VoIP cordless phone (e.g. Gigaset makes various models), or even a normal corded phone with a VoIP ATA. Some of them might even have integrated whitelisting, but I didn't check.
0xbadcafebee 5 hours ago [-]
For the nerdy who might want to set up their own similar system for their kids, and let their kids pick any landline phone they want, you can get an ATA (Analog Telephone Adapter) on eBay for cheap, then connect it to a Raspberry Pi with Asterisk, and any VOIP provider, to make your own PBX. (https://www.littlebytesofpi.com/raspberrypihomephone/)
philips 46 minutes ago [-]
I am working on a similar project. I have something working for my own needs and a few other families already but a long road to go before making something GA. You can waitlist at https://havenphone.com if you are interested.
There were three major things I wanted to do differently from Tin Can:
- I wanted to use off the shelf VOIP hardware so if the company ever went out of business I (and any of my users) had an escape valve or could just sell the hardware.
- I wanted to have a code base I could open source. (not open source, yet!)
- I wanted flexibility to offer ATAs (devices that let you connect any ol' "analog" phone)- some of my parent friends wanted cordless "DACT" phones, interestingly.
It has been quite an adventure entering the world of VOIP.
The SIP protocol has so many esoteric options (understandably given its history!) it could make TLS look simple.
My most recent learning is this crazy protocol called TR-069 that ISPs use to configure endpoint hardware like home routers, cable modems, and VOIP phones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TR-069
Also, interestingly every cheap (sub-$50) phone and ATA I have tried has a built-in OpenVPN clients.
Oh, and one more interesting thing Grandstream ATAs are able to be taken over by the Grandstream cloud service by just providing the ATA serial number and mac address on the back of the device- I did not love that workflow when considering long-term security. (:
If you have $50 and some time to kill you can do it all yourself right now. In voip.ms you can use the phone book and the caller id filter to create a "*" hang-up rule and an "allow phone book" rule.
I like the idea. We tried with licence free walkie talkies, but it did not catch on. What it worked is the xplora watches. Only approved contacts and we can also contact our kids and check GPS position . They are a bit buggy sometimes but mostly fine
worldsayshi 10 minutes ago [-]
Yeah I've seen some parents use this to great success. Seems to also allow them more freedom to allow kids to explore a bit more on their own. Like it's the 90's.
sharkweek 2 hours ago [-]
We got one of these for our elementary-aged kids because it took off in our network of families at their school.
It’s so fun watching them talk to their buddies from school, planning play dates, just chitchatting etc. My favorite thing is when they prank call one another, cracks me up.
Maybe the novelty wears off soon but for at least the last month or so they’ve used it every day. It feels like it gives them a bit of autonomy they’re seeking right now at their ages, but in a relatively safe way.
Highly recommend it.
AnotherGoodName 6 hours ago [-]
>some gen Xers don't say hello..
That's entirely pragmatic in this data collecting age. Being silent and hanging up as soon as you hear the spam won't get you marked as a phone line that has a human on the other end nor do you risk your voice being recorded. If you're silly enough to say your name when answering you'll just end up with text and email that is now personalised with your name (it's much faster to identify and hang up when their best intro is to say "hello who am i speaking to?" on a single person line click).
I don't know anyone in my age bracket (45) who doesn't do this let alone those younger. It's entirely understood and expected. Fuck anyone who says it's rude and those of an age particularly prone to falling for scams (70+ and 15under) should be encouraged to do this. You should be telling your kids "never say anything on picking up, let the caller to your phone identify themselves! They could be scammers trying to get your details such as your name".
I feel all these "OMG the kids don't say hello anymore they have no etiquette!!!" statements are either from the clueless or from spammers frustrated that it's much harder to get through if you don't know their name.
apparent 5 hours ago [-]
> You should be telling your kids "never say anything on picking up, let the caller to your phone identify themselves! They could be scammers trying to get your details such as your name".
How does saying "hello" give scammers your details such as your name?
vineyardmike 47 minutes ago [-]
When I was younger, adults used to answer the phone with "Hello, this is MyName, who am I speaking with?"
Pragmatically, even basic words from your voice can be used to estimate your age, gender, and geographic region (local accents).
But also read other comments, people are saying they answer their phone by stating their name, so plenty clearly use it as a greeting.
blululu 3 hours ago [-]
I think the op was maybe on a bit of a tear and misspoke, but the sentiment is correct. These days even saying hello can be used to make a decent voice clone with some reasonable (say 50%) chance that it is you (your phone number is linked to a ton of information). I would personally try to minimize my exposure to this risk even if it is somewhat paranoid.
Animats 5 hours ago [-]
I never answer my land line with "Hello", because predictive dialers recognize that as a go signal for telemarketers. I usually answer my land line with my name, business style. Cell phone is answered with "Hi, ... " depending on who's calling.
TheSpiceIsLife 2 hours ago [-]
I go further.
Even if I am expecting a call from a service provider, insurance, bank, whatever…
They’ll want you to identify yourself, name, dob, address.
Never do this to unverified inbound callers.
And how do you verify an inbound caller is who thru claim they are and not a scammer?
You don’t. You tell them you never give out PII to inbound callers as they are indistinguishable from scammers.
Then call the them on their publicly listed number and deal with the issue from there.
We need to encourage service providers to stop doing that as it is exactly leads to people being more easily scammed.
phyzome 5 hours ago [-]
Weird, I've never encountered this.
5 hours ago [-]
galaxyLogic 5 hours ago [-]
Wonderful idea. The kid can call their friend "Let's meet outside". Then they go outside and (must) leave the phone at home. They use the phone to organize no-phone time together. Might be good for adults too.
For instance my boss couldn't call me while I'm out and about. What you expect me to carry my landline with me?
jrflowers 2 hours ago [-]
I know somebody that’s been landline-only since the 70s and only recently got a cell phone that’s strictly used for one specific unavoidable 2FA thing. One of the happiest and most professionally accomplished people I know.
apparent 5 hours ago [-]
> There's also a free plan where Tin Can users can call only other Tin Can users.
So you have to pay a monthly subscription for this, in addition to $75 for each phone, if you want to talk with anyone outside of their walled garden?
wlesieutre 5 hours ago [-]
A monthly fee for a phone service sounds pretty normal to me?
apparent 4 hours ago [-]
In the age of FT audio calls and such, it seems out of place. I get paying for the hardware, and even a bit of a premium because the UI has so many parental controls. But charging a monthly fee seems surprising since the differentiation versus FT/GV/etc. is on the UI side, not the "you can talk to your friends" side. There is no monthly cost to a UI.
toast0 3 hours ago [-]
If you want to call POTS numbers, seems reasonable to pay a fee. voip.ms (of Canada, I think) charges ~ $2/month for a number and ~ $0.01 / minute for calls to US/Canada, calls to other subscribers are free. They work with deposits and a balance. Something in that range seems reasonable... maybe a little bit more if there's some work to make it specifically kid friendly (parental controls for incoming/outgoing calls?)
apparent 2 hours ago [-]
Fair enough...$10/mo seems high. And I say this as someone in the target demo.
philips 23 minutes ago [-]
What price point would feel good to you?
I am working on a similar service for my own needs (and some other friends). But, my current plan is to hit $100/yr or so but the hardware is included in that cost. I am assuming $2/mo for costs of the number and minutes and retail costs for VOIP hotel phones is about $50. Hopefully the hardware costs amortize out and then I can offer a discount to users on subsequent years.
(If you want to go DIY you can save quite a bit of money too- I provided some breadcrumbs for doing that in my comment on the parent)
It is actually amazing how far with a couple of tin cans, greaseproof paper taped around one end, and string attached to the paper. You are not going to do VOIP, but 50 yards is possible.
Even more OT:
One Xmas my Dad (unredeemable gadget freak, early adopter of the TRS80) gave me and my little bro two wired handsets with batteries and a ringer. We wired up brother's bedroom to living room, but soon realised our horrible mistake:
[ring, ring]
"Can I have a glass of water?"
[ring, ring]
"Can I have a glass of water?"
It lasted less than a day.
We also had a similar setup that did morse code, that was much less intrusive, not least because me and my little bro did not know morse, except for SOS.
Markoff 2 hours ago [-]
I fail to see any benefit over:
1. dumb phone with fixed dial contacts
2. properly set smartphone which can be used as dumb phone with restricted contacts and no app install allowed, apps screen time limited to zero or heck even browser disabled in guest profile
3. kids smartwatch with parental controls which limit who they can call and who can call and message them, I'm just working on one of these and it's great even for seniors
If you don't like kid having wearable with them I have shocking news for you - you can leave all of the above at home!
Btw. kids nowadays don't really call each other, they text (IM) each other. And for the record I am one of those few parents who didn't give phone/tablet to their toddlers hands like majority of people do wheever they are (public transport, car, waiting room, etc.), my older elementary school kid has "dumb" phone (my old Symbian Nokia, but he use it only for calls/SMS anyway, though I will probably switch to restricted smartphone since it's inconvenient even for me not being able to send whatsapp message, battery is crap and classmates have whatsapp as well), my younger elementary school kid doesn't have anything, but when she goes outside alone she takes Motorola walkie talkie with roughly 0.5-1km range in city.
edit: related call scene from Fight Club how Tyler properly answers the phone (not answering but calling back and his first response is "Who is this?"):
This is the ultimate "parents think it's great, kids will think it's lame" product. I mean, I like it. And just the name conjures images of GenXers yelling at clouds on TikTok about how they used to use tin cans or Solo cups connected with string to talk to their friends, so it's clear who they're targeting with the marketing. But if I were 11-13yo and I got this when all my friends got an iPhone? I'd be furious.
But I dunno. Kids being what they are, seem to be developing curiosity about "retro tech". So maybe there's some sort of whiplash effect occurring among them.
cortesoft 6 hours ago [-]
Yeah, I also pause when I read articles like this. The parent in this story is trying to go "full 90s", like that was when kids were raised the best... which just happens to be the time when they were kids. Except, when I was a kid in the 90s, the parents at that time thought the 90s things were horrible and longed for the best time to raise kids... which of course was when they were children.
BeetleB 6 hours ago [-]
Two use cases:
1. Allowing the kids to call parents and no one else, without all the extra baggage that comes with a smartphone.
2. Multiple families getting together and deciding this is how their kids will communicate with each other (i.e. all agreeing not to get smartphones for their kids).
> But if I were 11-13yo and I got this when all my friends got an iPhone? I'd be furious.
If you've decided they're not getting a smartphone at that age, they'll be furious regardless. They may opt for this as an alternative. Up to the kids.
toomuchtodo 6 hours ago [-]
These are the two uses cases we use it for: call parents, call grandparents, call friends. We bought units for their friends. No smartphones.
Bender 6 hours ago [-]
Even if they play with it for 5 minutes it's a fun little science lesson if the parents bother to explain what is happening.
BeetleB 6 hours ago [-]
$100 is a lot for 5 minutes of fun.
zamadatix 6 hours ago [-]
I read it as they were talking about the idea of having kids still go play with actual tin cans and a string in this day and age rather than it be something only old people could have done.
Bender 6 hours ago [-]
I just meant if they used an actual tin can and string. This is just a wired intercom. There are much cheaper ones on Amazon, several options.
apparent 5 hours ago [-]
Backordered until December, apparently.
TheSpiceIsLife 2 hours ago [-]
If my 11 to 13 year old got furious they’d swiftly find themselves at an agricultural boarding school in the regions.
This being Australia, likely a particular remote boarding school in a particular hot part of the county.
Come back when you’ve learned how to be reasonable sort of person.
IncreasePosts 6 hours ago [-]
This is for kids who don't yet have a smart phone, not as a smart phone replacement for kids who already had smartphones. I made something similar for my kids(basically, a phone with buttons that can call a fixed set of people), and my kids love it, and use it multiple times per day.
vscode-rest 6 hours ago [-]
Probably the best thing is a CB radio. Let them talk to any other kids in town but no chance of weirdness.
wolrah 5 hours ago [-]
> Probably the best thing is a CB radio. Let them talk to any other kids in town but no chance of weirdness.
No chance of weirdness? On CB? Have you used a CB?!?
I had a CB in my car for a while and the majority of the talk I ever heard on it outside of traffic updates and cop reports on major interstate highways was weird shit.
vscode-rest 3 hours ago [-]
Perhaps. But weirdness in a public space is superior to weirdness in DMs.
bitwize 6 hours ago [-]
If the kid doesn't have a smartphone, and looks around and sees kids who do have one, they're gonna be envious and pissed when their parents tell them they can't have one. I know because it's analogous to what I felt when I was still slumming it with my TI-99/4A when every other kid had a NES back in the late 80s.
loloquwowndueo 6 hours ago [-]
Your kid is envious about their friends who smoke all the time. Would you buy your kid some cigarettes just so they can be non-envious?
wisemang 5 hours ago [-]
Pfft those suckers didn't have Parsec or Car Wars or Ms. Pac Man plus the hours spent typing TI-BASIC from a magazine was less frustrating than trying to get the jumps right on Super Mario Bros level 8-2. And I'm sure Demolition Division and Meteor Multiplication are why I ended up with a math degree.
For real though I spent so much time pining for Mario 3 before my parents finally did give in. But I feel like there was something good about the diversity, like when I could play Lode Runner on my buddy's C64 (actually a 128... GO 64)
ares623 6 hours ago [-]
That sentiment has been changing. Kids themselves are seeing social media for what it really is.
Rendered at 08:48:36 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
By far the best thing is that he makes his own playdates. I'm not the middleman anymore. He just makes plans and asks me if it's ok. And if his friend doesn't have a landline, I let him call their parent. It surprises them, but when he leaves a message, they love it. He's definitely had more time with friends because of it.
Another funny thing was he complained about writing a thank you note, so we said "OK, the alternative is that you have to call them". He called them, had a nice conversation, and thanked them. Honestly, it was better than a thank you note.
It's been one of the best purchases we're made. I feel some hope this will delay the eventual begging for a smart phone because he's able to do the most critical thing, connect with friends.
The thing for me that has really unlocked voice-based socializing has been the 12 year old jumping on Discord with his buddies from school. I feel like this mirrors well how I myself chat with my adult male friends—it's rarely in the context of just "a call" but rather while doing another activity. So when I see him joking around with them while they play Minecraft or whatever, that feels like it's a reasonable pattern for how to sustain friendships.
If I build it, I can control the full feature set and explain to him how it worked and he'll get the 'cool' factor too. With the raspberry pi I have lying around at home, it doesn't sound impossible!
They need only an electrical outlet for the charge stand.
I don't live in the US but my child, who is 9, does not have a cell phone nor does any of his school mates. They "chat" when they see each other in school, or when they hang out together to play after school.
Obvious benefits include low cost, full interop with all other phones, and having the kids learn our phone numbers by heart after punching them many times.
voip.ms is about $1.30/mo with the cost of the phone number (DID) and "minutes".
I have some more breadcrumbs on this thread if you are interested in details on my setup too.
I read the previous discussion, oof:
S04dKHzrKT wrote
Make note of the privacy policy[1]. Some users may not like the data they collect. > Information Collected from Children: As detailed in Section 3.C, we collect voice audio during calls, call log information, and utilize the Parent-provided contact list in relation to the Child's use of the Tin Can Device. We may also collect device identifiers and technical usage data related to the Service.
[1]: https://tincan.kids/policies/privacy-policy
>Call Logs: We collect information about calls made using Phones, including the phone numbers you call or receive calls from, the date/time of the calls, and the length of the calls. We also collect network quality metrics and other technical data related to call performance. Please note that we do not record calls.
The version of the privacy policy cited in the previous discussion cited that voice audio is collected for the purposes of forwarding it to the other phone.
Their policy says that the information they collect is used to "Send you marketing communications (see the section below for information about how to opt out of these communications at any time)" and to "Monitor and analyze trends, usage, and activities in connection with our Phones and Services, including to generate de-identified, anonymized, or aggregated data" and to "Target advertisements to you on third-party platforms and websites (for more information and to opt out, see the Targeted Advertising and Analytics section below)"
Remember that "de-identified" and "anonymized" is a lie. De-identified data can be re-identified, and anonymized data can be de-anonymized. Often trivially. There are even situations where individuals can be identified from aggregated data.
However, a new severely under-powered phone with no graphics or apps would probably meet the requirements of not being sucked into the grown-up world too early, and the kids can maintain their own contact lists.
And they'll grow super-fast thumbs like we had to in order to text :)
They cost about $50 but are still 4G.
It's especially fun to watch them discover the very concept of a landline: the keypad (they thought it was a pin code); the dial tone; the memorizing and writing down of phone numbers.
5/5 highly recommended.
- allowed list of apps, can reduce it to just phone, imessage, and utilities like weather app
- effectively permanent downtime, just set the end time less than start time such as 3:00 am to 2:59 am (technically 1 minute of non downtime). This blocks apps except for the allowed apps
- disable installing apps from app store
- disable adding new contacts and block calls and messages not in contact list. This allows parent to control who the phone can be used to contact
- none of these settings can be changed without the screen time pin
- also configure the phone with a minor apple account and add to your family group so you can monitor and control screen time settings from your phone.
So start with a super locked down phone that can only be used to communicate with parents. This is very helpful when they start after school sports. And the phone is so locked down they don't really have any interest in it.
Later when they're older start allowing communication with friends from school. But still only phone and imessage, no other apps. This reinforces that it's a communication device, not for endless scrolling and watching videos.
What's going to happen immediately is that kids with equivalent phones will compare, realize that one has a lot of restrictions and the other doesn't, and it becomes a nightmare. They know that all you need to do is unlock it for them.
It's the same mental distinction between "For $200 we'll install rear seat warmers in your Tesla" and "For $200 we'll 'unlock' the already-present rear seat warmers" (that's the only hardware unlock I've ever paid for and I'm still bitter 7 years later).
I'm an older Gen-X and I've stopped doing this unless I recognize the caller. I'm not going to give a scammer anything to build a voice print on. I also use the stock greeting for voicemail instead of a personal one.
The number of calls I get where it's either dead silence in the other end or clearly a call center based on the noise can only be categorized as "too much".
related call scene from Fight Club how Tyler properly answers the phone (not answering but calling back and his first response is "Who is this?"):
https://youtu.be/tlw677Une_Q?si=xj3Sce9RdQ-_UfZP&t=85
Slightly rude, but saying nothing at all is just bizarre to me.
Edit to add: One thing I've done for the last decade or so is use a number from an area code I don't live in. Most of my spam calls come from the same area code, so if I see that I know it's spam or a wrong number.
It doesn't share my voice (for fingerprinting, demographic leak, etc, smh).
Also works as a bot filter - Humans tend to start with a "hello..?" because they're not sure anyone is there, while robots use the non-zero audio as a signal to start talking with full confidence.
I don’t get that. How is answering the phone mentally accepting the caller? What does it even mean to mentally accept? Is it that you don’t want to talk? Then let it go to voicemail and decide if you want to call back or not? I think I’m missing the point.
A 3d printed case, a little SoC, perhaps a Raspberry Pi Zero, as the brains with asterisk and some additional open source software providing a web interface running on it.
I first found the Tin Can cool, but now seeing their privacy policy, it's definitely nothing for me. I'd just use a normal VoIP cordless phone (e.g. Gigaset makes various models), or even a normal corded phone with a VoIP ATA. Some of them might even have integrated whitelisting, but I didn't check.
There were three major things I wanted to do differently from Tin Can:
- I wanted to use off the shelf VOIP hardware so if the company ever went out of business I (and any of my users) had an escape valve or could just sell the hardware.
- I wanted to have a code base I could open source. (not open source, yet!)
- I wanted flexibility to offer ATAs (devices that let you connect any ol' "analog" phone)- some of my parent friends wanted cordless "DACT" phones, interestingly.
It has been quite an adventure entering the world of VOIP.
The SIP protocol has so many esoteric options (understandably given its history!) it could make TLS look simple.
My most recent learning is this crazy protocol called TR-069 that ISPs use to configure endpoint hardware like home routers, cable modems, and VOIP phones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TR-069
Also, interestingly every cheap (sub-$50) phone and ATA I have tried has a built-in OpenVPN clients.
Oh, and one more interesting thing Grandstream ATAs are able to be taken over by the Grandstream cloud service by just providing the ATA serial number and mac address on the back of the device- I did not love that workflow when considering long-term security. (:
If you have $50 and some time to kill you can do it all yourself right now. In voip.ms you can use the phone book and the caller id filter to create a "*" hang-up rule and an "allow phone book" rule.
- https://major.io/p/85-cents-home-phone/
- https://www.voipsupply.com/fanvil-h3w-wifi-hotel-ip-phone-wh...
- https://www.voipsupply.com/fanvil-h2u-black-hotel-phone-v2
- https://www.voipsupply.com/grandstream-ht801-v2-ata
It’s so fun watching them talk to their buddies from school, planning play dates, just chitchatting etc. My favorite thing is when they prank call one another, cracks me up.
Maybe the novelty wears off soon but for at least the last month or so they’ve used it every day. It feels like it gives them a bit of autonomy they’re seeking right now at their ages, but in a relatively safe way.
Highly recommend it.
That's entirely pragmatic in this data collecting age. Being silent and hanging up as soon as you hear the spam won't get you marked as a phone line that has a human on the other end nor do you risk your voice being recorded. If you're silly enough to say your name when answering you'll just end up with text and email that is now personalised with your name (it's much faster to identify and hang up when their best intro is to say "hello who am i speaking to?" on a single person line click).
I don't know anyone in my age bracket (45) who doesn't do this let alone those younger. It's entirely understood and expected. Fuck anyone who says it's rude and those of an age particularly prone to falling for scams (70+ and 15under) should be encouraged to do this. You should be telling your kids "never say anything on picking up, let the caller to your phone identify themselves! They could be scammers trying to get your details such as your name".
I feel all these "OMG the kids don't say hello anymore they have no etiquette!!!" statements are either from the clueless or from spammers frustrated that it's much harder to get through if you don't know their name.
How does saying "hello" give scammers your details such as your name?
Pragmatically, even basic words from your voice can be used to estimate your age, gender, and geographic region (local accents).
But also read other comments, people are saying they answer their phone by stating their name, so plenty clearly use it as a greeting.
Even if I am expecting a call from a service provider, insurance, bank, whatever…
They’ll want you to identify yourself, name, dob, address.
Never do this to unverified inbound callers.
And how do you verify an inbound caller is who thru claim they are and not a scammer?
You don’t. You tell them you never give out PII to inbound callers as they are indistinguishable from scammers.
Then call the them on their publicly listed number and deal with the issue from there.
We need to encourage service providers to stop doing that as it is exactly leads to people being more easily scammed.
For instance my boss couldn't call me while I'm out and about. What you expect me to carry my landline with me?
So you have to pay a monthly subscription for this, in addition to $75 for each phone, if you want to talk with anyone outside of their walled garden?
I am working on a similar service for my own needs (and some other friends). But, my current plan is to hit $100/yr or so but the hardware is included in that cost. I am assuming $2/mo for costs of the number and minutes and retail costs for VOIP hotel phones is about $50. Hopefully the hardware costs amortize out and then I can offer a discount to users on subsequent years.
(If you want to go DIY you can save quite a bit of money too- I provided some breadcrumbs for doing that in my comment on the parent)
It is actually amazing how far with a couple of tin cans, greaseproof paper taped around one end, and string attached to the paper. You are not going to do VOIP, but 50 yards is possible.
Even more OT:
One Xmas my Dad (unredeemable gadget freak, early adopter of the TRS80) gave me and my little bro two wired handsets with batteries and a ringer. We wired up brother's bedroom to living room, but soon realised our horrible mistake:
[ring, ring]
"Can I have a glass of water?"
[ring, ring]
"Can I have a glass of water?"
It lasted less than a day.
We also had a similar setup that did morse code, that was much less intrusive, not least because me and my little bro did not know morse, except for SOS.
1. dumb phone with fixed dial contacts
2. properly set smartphone which can be used as dumb phone with restricted contacts and no app install allowed, apps screen time limited to zero or heck even browser disabled in guest profile
3. kids smartwatch with parental controls which limit who they can call and who can call and message them, I'm just working on one of these and it's great even for seniors
If you don't like kid having wearable with them I have shocking news for you - you can leave all of the above at home!
Btw. kids nowadays don't really call each other, they text (IM) each other. And for the record I am one of those few parents who didn't give phone/tablet to their toddlers hands like majority of people do wheever they are (public transport, car, waiting room, etc.), my older elementary school kid has "dumb" phone (my old Symbian Nokia, but he use it only for calls/SMS anyway, though I will probably switch to restricted smartphone since it's inconvenient even for me not being able to send whatsapp message, battery is crap and classmates have whatsapp as well), my younger elementary school kid doesn't have anything, but when she goes outside alone she takes Motorola walkie talkie with roughly 0.5-1km range in city.
edit: related call scene from Fight Club how Tyler properly answers the phone (not answering but calling back and his first response is "Who is this?"):
https://youtu.be/tlw677Une_Q?si=xj3Sce9RdQ-_UfZP&t=85
But I dunno. Kids being what they are, seem to be developing curiosity about "retro tech". So maybe there's some sort of whiplash effect occurring among them.
1. Allowing the kids to call parents and no one else, without all the extra baggage that comes with a smartphone.
2. Multiple families getting together and deciding this is how their kids will communicate with each other (i.e. all agreeing not to get smartphones for their kids).
> But if I were 11-13yo and I got this when all my friends got an iPhone? I'd be furious.
If you've decided they're not getting a smartphone at that age, they'll be furious regardless. They may opt for this as an alternative. Up to the kids.
This being Australia, likely a particular remote boarding school in a particular hot part of the county.
Come back when you’ve learned how to be reasonable sort of person.
No chance of weirdness? On CB? Have you used a CB?!?
I had a CB in my car for a while and the majority of the talk I ever heard on it outside of traffic updates and cop reports on major interstate highways was weird shit.
For real though I spent so much time pining for Mario 3 before my parents finally did give in. But I feel like there was something good about the diversity, like when I could play Lode Runner on my buddy's C64 (actually a 128... GO 64)