Do you work with non-US companies? I have a company in Estonia, and hold some reserve cash (mix of dollars and euro) on a Wise account. It pays 2.20% variable APR, but I’m starting to explore other options :-)
quickthrowman 2 hours ago [-]
You’re still exposing yourself to duration risk, right? What’s the average duration of your short-term MBS portfolio?
MBS bonds pay a risk premium for a reason, you’re virtually free of credit risk, but you’re assuming interest rate/duration risk (not particularly relevant if duration is low, I’m not familiar with the duration of short term floating rate MBSes)
Also, what happens in a Silicon Valley bank type scenario, let’s say you have lots of withdrawals and you have to liquidate at under face value. Who eats the loss?
JackFr 2 hours ago [-]
They said “short duration” not “short term”. The real risk is from spread duration rather than simple interest rate duration, and assuming they don’t lever up, that should be minimal.
The beauty of MBS floaters is that you’re relatively insensitive to prepayments because to a first approximation they’re always priced at par.
From an investor standpoint, as they say, you’re making maybe SOFR + 1.5%. That’s not a very sext return. But let’s say your banks repo desk is willing to finance the purchase at 5% down. Then you can lever up your investment 20x and now you’re a big shot making SOFR+30%, which is very sexy. But what’s that, when your lever like that, a tiny decline in price wipes out your entire stake (Welcome to 2008).
sam_palus 32 minutes ago [-]
Very well put. And yes, to your point, we don't lever up.
And yes, SOFR + 1.5% isn't very sexy, but we're competing against existing treasury product that use money market funds and pay SOFR (or less, after fees). So that 1.5% is meaningful.
quickthrowman 2 hours ago [-]
Thanks for the informative reply, that makes sense.
andrewljohnson 2 hours ago [-]
We use Mercury’s treasury account to get yields on cash, and what appeals to me is it is easy to manage. I don’t have to worry about setting up processes to move money around and it’s integrated with my bank account, and we wouldn’t want to switch even for a higher yield… the operational burden is more important to us than yield.
I think the yield is about 3.2% based on how we set it up to be as liquid as possible. We could have accepted less liquidity for more like 3.8%
mogonzal 49 minutes ago [-]
Hey Andrew thanks for the feedback
We know that the main barrier to switching is just time and ease of use, so we deliberately built this to have the same operational burden as using your current treasury product
Palus links straight to your bank account just like Mercury, and we'll also allow you to set up rules for moving money around!
That said, if there's any other features that really keep people tied to their current products we want to know about it. Our goal here is to build something that actually cares about the fact that you're a startup with limited time to care about yields, and not just throw your money in a generic fund and forget you exist
yarrowy 2 hours ago [-]
What's the advantage of this versus opening a Fidelity account and buying the same product?
mogonzal 1 hours ago [-]
Super fair question haha. I'm gonna flip this question first because I think it perfectly frames the current landscape of startup/SMB treasury products
Say you (like many startups) use Mercury Treasury, Rho Treasury, Brex Treasury, etc. Most of these list somewhere exactly what funds they buy into. Why not just open a fidelity account and by them yourself?
The answer is pretty clearly ease of use. Easy to move money from your bank account (likely also with them) to their treasury, easy to set up rules like ("if my bank balance falls below $X then transfer $Y from treasury"), stuff like that
We provide all of these features too! We are not at all asking people to bank with us or spend the time/friction of actively managing their deposits
So if the ease-of-use is the same and the yields are roughly 40% more than the generic money market wrappers out there, we think it's a no-brainer
(EDIT: adding mention that I am OP's co-founder)
2 hours ago [-]
mushufasa 2 hours ago [-]
I spent time looking into this a couple years ago as a startup founder with this problem. We are in the finance space so I saw how bad the treasury options were with our bank, given their fee cut versus plain T-bonds at the time. I looked into which brokerages allowed us to setup self-directed accounts (many banks don't offer that for businesses at all). I found the "correct" approach. But then there would be more paperwork and back and forth to set up that new account, then manage transferring money around when we needed it, logging into a different system. On a ski trip a friend in finance told me "you're being dumb, if your bank offers you a treasury plan with a one click button, even if it's not perfect, click that button now!" So I did.
Then, the benefit of saving 1-2% extra versus spending my time trying to actually running the business and doing things with our money in the real world, has meant I have never looked back. 1-2% on millions of dollars is significant but it's not nearly as impactful as finding Product-Market-Fit in your actual business.
All this to say: I'd be in your target market but I'm simply not interested in a "marginally better" treasury system versus just going with my bank's options that make it easy for me.
sam_palus 37 minutes ago [-]
That's fair. But to your point, the problem we see is that banks' treasury products take advantage of founders who (rightfully) don't want to think about their treasury yields.
That's why we designed Palus to be as simple as possible to use. If you check out our demo video, you'll see it's super straightforward. Setup takes <5 min and then you don't have to think about it anymore. We're also building out automatic sweep functionality, so then you REALLY won't have to think about it.
Given the significant increase in returns on a large treasury, we think it's worth the small amount of effort.
Esophagus4 2 hours ago [-]
Similar to something like Jiko?
collingreen 2 hours ago [-]
Startup founder: at this point you need to overcome the stigma of fly by night fintech wrappers sitting on top of banking and the exceptional, outsized risk that creates for consumers a la synchrony and things like yotta essentially losing millions of customer money with no recourse because a discrepancy between those two layers. 1% higher yield is nowhere near juicy enough for me to literally bet the company on and that's close to what would happen if you lost my entire last round (or locked it up 6 months beyond when I need it). Starting with yc companies as a trust indicator is helpful although yc switching to a shotgun "fund hundreds of companies per batch" approach means the yc label carries a LOT less weight than it used to (since they are no longer paying much attention to any one investment).
I like smart finance plays and I hope you can do that and stand out from the glut of finance bros who have (and continue to) muddied the water (poisoned the well?) with this approach of "tech on top if actual finance companies".
Good luck out there!
sam_palus 48 minutes ago [-]
Fair! Growing user trust is definitely one of the biggest challenges building in this space.
For what it's worth, we don't hold users' funds ourselves; we use an SEC-regulated custodian (Alpaca) with the assets legally held in your name. And we're working on building transparency measures, like detailed views into your account's specific holdings of underlying assets with verifiable attestations, third-party auditing, and frankly any other measures that our customers would want us to.
I know putting company money into a new product requires a lot of trust. Like any product you're still exploring, I'd encourage you to start small, try us out, and grow your position over time as we earn your trust. And if it helps you trust us, I'd be happy to get on a Zoom call or meet IRL.
SigmundA 2 hours ago [-]
Nice to have some higher yield options.
There are banks out there that will do business savings accounts not much below this (2.85%) while keeping things safe (FDIC insured) and liquid.
Good find- 2.85% is great for a business savings account.
All that is to say: businesses shouldn't treat all their cash the same way, especially when they have significant runway. The exact breakdown depends on the business, but typically you can think of it as three different buckets:
1) You have short-term cash, which you need immediately. This is where you'd use a checking account. This pays very close to 0% but you have immediate access. Most businesses might keep a few weeks' cash here.
2) You have short-term reserves, which is what you'd use in the next couple of months. This is where most companies might use a savings account (or even put it in a money market fund), where you know you can get the cash into your checking account in ~1 day. This pays between 2.5% and up to maybe 3.75%. Each business will structure their cash differently, and some might not even bother having this bucket.
3) Long term reserves, which you won't touch for months. This is where companies try to optimize yield, and where Palus is valuable. Even here, your money is safe, and in Palus's case can usually be in your checking account within a couple of days, but getting extra yield on long-term reserves can be super valuable.
zie 2 hours ago [-]
At .49% expense ratio, plus whatever your cut is, it won't be a very cheap product. Even SPAXX, the default holding of cash at Fidelity is cheaper at .42% ER.
There is no free lunch in investing, so that extra yield comes with extra risk. Be that duration, credit, etc. That's not to say MBS's don't have their place, but I would never claim people's mortgages as equivalent to cash in any shape or form. Your website claims MBSF is safe for 3+ month durations, but that is not the avg duration of MBSF held securities, so you are encouraging duration risk.
I haven't read the full prospectus on MBSF, so I'm not an expert on that product, but it seems expensive and complicated, which is not what you want for cash and cash-like things. This should be a hard pass for literally everyone.
Meanwhile you can hold something like ICSH[0] or SGOV[1] with expense in the .09% or lower range(i.e. for every $10k we are talking $9/yr or less in fees). SGOV is 0-3 month max duration, so it's perfect for holdings in the 3 month time-frame. If you need longer time frames you can buy govt bond ladders in whatever time frame you want.
What your product should have been: You specify duration for each of your buckets, and then you pick appropriate, cheap index-based investments that are cheap and easy to reason about for each of the buckets.
The 4.5-5% yields we quote are net of expense ratio. Then our cut is 0.25%, comparable to the 0.15% to 0.6% charged by Mercury, Rho, etc. And we're working on bringing that expense ratio down as we scale.
Functionally speaking, short-duration floating-rate agency MBS trade at such a stable NAV that they're perfectly sufficient for long-term cash, and many large companies trade these.
MBSF is complex in the way that basically any fund is complex, but the strategy it employs is actually quite simple since it only trades a single asset class. Yes the expense ratio is higher than some other funds but the additional yields more than make up for it.
ICSH and SGOV are great funds too, and make sense for shorter-term cash, but they pay significantly less than we do.
Broadly speaking, our product is meant for exactly the kind of cash strategy you're thinking about: multiple buckets with duration spread accordingly. At the moment, our platform is just for the long-term bucket. But in the future, we might add additional shorter-term buckets too (maybe even with ICSH or SGOV).
uniclaude 2 hours ago [-]
Far from me the idea of criticizing a founder starting something to help other startups. That's amazing. However, the post is not really accurate! Are you sure that all these MBS pools have the same government backing as Treasuries? Ginnie Mae, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac are not equal.
Are the additional risks (spread risk, liquidity mismatch, and risks related to the mortgage structure that even Regan discloses!) worth the tiny extra yield above money market funds? Startups have to deal with uncertainty all the time, that's the nature of business. Principal loss, and liquidity issues are not things you should have to deal with as a startup. However, providing options to startups is always great, and I think this is a great direction!
Again, I hope this doesn't come as negative, but I'm not sure this is making the risk clear.
I am not sure I would suggest my portfolio companies to risk their treasuries unless I am sure they're fully understanding the risks associated. Do you intend to provide anything else?
sam_palus 1 hours ago [-]
These are good points.
On the government backing: it's a fair nuance to point out. In a technical sense, Ginnie Mae has the explicit full faith and credit guarantee while Fannie/Freddie are GSEs with an implicit one (and are under government conservatorship). But in practice, the distinction isn't really meaningful. In practice, the federal government has always guaranteed these loans (even in 2008, when they were under the most stress they've ever been, and there have been significant reforms as a result). There's no reason to think they'll ever stop. The scenario where the GSE guarantee fails is essentially the collapse of the US economy well beyond anything we saw in 2008 (in which case frankly we all have much bigger problems).
On the risks you mentioned:
1) Principal loss: given the guarantees re credit risk, and the fact that we use short-duration floating rate instruments to protect against price risk, this shouldn't really be a concern.
2) On spread risk: there can be slight variation in spread, mostly affecting yields; this is why we say "4.5-5%" yields given there's some variability in that range (but all far above money market).
3) On liquidity: agency MBS is the second most liquid fixed-income market in the world after Treasuries. In nearly all circumstances, liquidity is 1-2 business days. This product is really meant for long-term cash reserves; our idea is that companies should stop treating 6+ month cash the same as next month's payroll.
Ultimately we encourage founders to do their own research and understand what they're doing with their money. We wouldn't ask anyone to put short-term cash in a MBS portfolio (in the future we'll probably offer some other options too). But for long-term cash they're sitting on, the extra yield can be meaningful to the business: on $5M, it's an extra $50k-75k per year, or half a junior engineer's salary. Given the minimal risk, I think it's worthwhile for a lot of companies.
kjksf 2 hours ago [-]
Anyone can buy STRC with 10-11% yield, paid monthly. Full liquidity (i.e. can sell anytime).
5% return is not competitive.
sam_palus 1 hours ago [-]
STRC has only been around for less than a year. I don't know too much about what assets it holds (and maybe it's worth me looking into it), but those kinds of returns are generally a sign that you're taking on a lot more risk than you think (even if it hasn't had a major price decrease yet).
We're competing against long-term cash held in a money-market fund (an instrument optimized for short-term use with same-day liquidity) earning 3.5%. In that context our yields definitely are competitive.
_hugerobots_ 2 hours ago [-]
This would be a really nice product to start ups outside the US tech belt. Hubris of treading water in longterm a-series SUs elsewhere, this could be a viable solution if accessible.
lowkey_ 2 hours ago [-]
Not the OP but curious why you think so?
If this gives an extra 1% per se, I imagine that is more worth it to a company fresh off a large fundraise with a ton of cash in the bank.
Startups otherwise are lean and won't hold enough cash to get a meaningful return from the 1%.
hahahacorn 2 hours ago [-]
Is this available for Non Profits?
I've had an easy time setting up treasury accounts with Rho & Mercury for 2 co's, but the latter gave me a no-go on an account for a non profit.
sam_palus 1 hours ago [-]
Yep! Fill out the signup on our website and we'll be in touch
I_am_tiberius 2 hours ago [-]
Did YC finally stop investing in AI companies only?
mogonzal 6 minutes ago [-]
Haha just wait until we add a chatbot in the corner of your window that's constantly pinging you to deposit more money
Name suggestions are appreciated
2 hours ago [-]
Lionga 2 hours ago [-]
Any higher yield comes from higher risk. If any startup feels the startup is not risky enough and really wants to have higher yield for higher risk just put the money in a Bond ETF that suits your risk appetite. Crazy that YC funds things that make a simple thing more complex and more costly for zero upside.
sam_palus 10 minutes ago [-]
The bond funds offered in existing startup treasury products aren't suited for startups' long-term cash reserves. They either offer low-yield money market funds, or bond funds that aren't well suited for capital preservation on the order of months the way startups operate (see here for an example of VFSTX, the fund offered by one of the leading startup treasury products today: https://totalrealreturns.com/n/USDOLLAR,VFSTX?start=2021-01-...)
Our goal is to make sophisticated treasury management easy for startups. With Palus, they don't need to manage a brokerage account, or handle treasury ladders, or anything like that.
TZubiri 2 hours ago [-]
If the value proposition is better interest rates, it sounds like Palus would get that by giving up their cut, what would be your monetization strategy then?
mogonzal 34 minutes ago [-]
Lucky for both of us, the value prop isn't just "we are offering better interest rates on the same instruments because we gave up our cut"
It's actually "we found a way better set of instruments for long-term cash that allow us to offer better interest rates without giving up the cut altogether"
That being said, we do think the current treasury products can be a little predatory with their rates. For example, Rho charges a variable rate that peaks at 0.6% for any deposit of $2M or less. We think that's crazy so our margin is a flat 0.25%, no asterisks or fine print.
Rendered at 21:06:07 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
Do you work with non-US companies? I have a company in Estonia, and hold some reserve cash (mix of dollars and euro) on a Wise account. It pays 2.20% variable APR, but I’m starting to explore other options :-)
MBS bonds pay a risk premium for a reason, you’re virtually free of credit risk, but you’re assuming interest rate/duration risk (not particularly relevant if duration is low, I’m not familiar with the duration of short term floating rate MBSes)
Also, what happens in a Silicon Valley bank type scenario, let’s say you have lots of withdrawals and you have to liquidate at under face value. Who eats the loss?
The beauty of MBS floaters is that you’re relatively insensitive to prepayments because to a first approximation they’re always priced at par.
From an investor standpoint, as they say, you’re making maybe SOFR + 1.5%. That’s not a very sext return. But let’s say your banks repo desk is willing to finance the purchase at 5% down. Then you can lever up your investment 20x and now you’re a big shot making SOFR+30%, which is very sexy. But what’s that, when your lever like that, a tiny decline in price wipes out your entire stake (Welcome to 2008).
And yes, SOFR + 1.5% isn't very sexy, but we're competing against existing treasury product that use money market funds and pay SOFR (or less, after fees). So that 1.5% is meaningful.
I think the yield is about 3.2% based on how we set it up to be as liquid as possible. We could have accepted less liquidity for more like 3.8%
We know that the main barrier to switching is just time and ease of use, so we deliberately built this to have the same operational burden as using your current treasury product
Palus links straight to your bank account just like Mercury, and we'll also allow you to set up rules for moving money around!
That said, if there's any other features that really keep people tied to their current products we want to know about it. Our goal here is to build something that actually cares about the fact that you're a startup with limited time to care about yields, and not just throw your money in a generic fund and forget you exist
Say you (like many startups) use Mercury Treasury, Rho Treasury, Brex Treasury, etc. Most of these list somewhere exactly what funds they buy into. Why not just open a fidelity account and by them yourself?
The answer is pretty clearly ease of use. Easy to move money from your bank account (likely also with them) to their treasury, easy to set up rules like ("if my bank balance falls below $X then transfer $Y from treasury"), stuff like that
We provide all of these features too! We are not at all asking people to bank with us or spend the time/friction of actively managing their deposits
So if the ease-of-use is the same and the yields are roughly 40% more than the generic money market wrappers out there, we think it's a no-brainer
(EDIT: adding mention that I am OP's co-founder)
Then, the benefit of saving 1-2% extra versus spending my time trying to actually running the business and doing things with our money in the real world, has meant I have never looked back. 1-2% on millions of dollars is significant but it's not nearly as impactful as finding Product-Market-Fit in your actual business.
All this to say: I'd be in your target market but I'm simply not interested in a "marginally better" treasury system versus just going with my bank's options that make it easy for me.
That's why we designed Palus to be as simple as possible to use. If you check out our demo video, you'll see it's super straightforward. Setup takes <5 min and then you don't have to think about it anymore. We're also building out automatic sweep functionality, so then you REALLY won't have to think about it.
Given the significant increase in returns on a large treasury, we think it's worth the small amount of effort.
I like smart finance plays and I hope you can do that and stand out from the glut of finance bros who have (and continue to) muddied the water (poisoned the well?) with this approach of "tech on top if actual finance companies".
Good luck out there!
For what it's worth, we don't hold users' funds ourselves; we use an SEC-regulated custodian (Alpaca) with the assets legally held in your name. And we're working on building transparency measures, like detailed views into your account's specific holdings of underlying assets with verifiable attestations, third-party auditing, and frankly any other measures that our customers would want us to.
I know putting company money into a new product requires a lot of trust. Like any product you're still exploring, I'd encourage you to start small, try us out, and grow your position over time as we earn your trust. And if it helps you trust us, I'd be happy to get on a Zoom call or meet IRL.
There are banks out there that will do business savings accounts not much below this (2.85%) while keeping things safe (FDIC insured) and liquid.
https://www.liveoak.bank/business-savings/
All that is to say: businesses shouldn't treat all their cash the same way, especially when they have significant runway. The exact breakdown depends on the business, but typically you can think of it as three different buckets:
1) You have short-term cash, which you need immediately. This is where you'd use a checking account. This pays very close to 0% but you have immediate access. Most businesses might keep a few weeks' cash here.
2) You have short-term reserves, which is what you'd use in the next couple of months. This is where most companies might use a savings account (or even put it in a money market fund), where you know you can get the cash into your checking account in ~1 day. This pays between 2.5% and up to maybe 3.75%. Each business will structure their cash differently, and some might not even bother having this bucket.
3) Long term reserves, which you won't touch for months. This is where companies try to optimize yield, and where Palus is valuable. Even here, your money is safe, and in Palus's case can usually be in your checking account within a couple of days, but getting extra yield on long-term reserves can be super valuable.
There is no free lunch in investing, so that extra yield comes with extra risk. Be that duration, credit, etc. That's not to say MBS's don't have their place, but I would never claim people's mortgages as equivalent to cash in any shape or form. Your website claims MBSF is safe for 3+ month durations, but that is not the avg duration of MBSF held securities, so you are encouraging duration risk.
I haven't read the full prospectus on MBSF, so I'm not an expert on that product, but it seems expensive and complicated, which is not what you want for cash and cash-like things. This should be a hard pass for literally everyone.
Meanwhile you can hold something like ICSH[0] or SGOV[1] with expense in the .09% or lower range(i.e. for every $10k we are talking $9/yr or less in fees). SGOV is 0-3 month max duration, so it's perfect for holdings in the 3 month time-frame. If you need longer time frames you can buy govt bond ladders in whatever time frame you want.
What your product should have been: You specify duration for each of your buckets, and then you pick appropriate, cheap index-based investments that are cheap and easy to reason about for each of the buckets.
0: https://www.ishares.com/us/products/258806/ishares-liquidity... 1: https://www.ishares.com/us/products/314116/ishares-0-3-month...
Functionally speaking, short-duration floating-rate agency MBS trade at such a stable NAV that they're perfectly sufficient for long-term cash, and many large companies trade these.
MBSF is complex in the way that basically any fund is complex, but the strategy it employs is actually quite simple since it only trades a single asset class. Yes the expense ratio is higher than some other funds but the additional yields more than make up for it.
ICSH and SGOV are great funds too, and make sense for shorter-term cash, but they pay significantly less than we do.
Broadly speaking, our product is meant for exactly the kind of cash strategy you're thinking about: multiple buckets with duration spread accordingly. At the moment, our platform is just for the long-term bucket. But in the future, we might add additional shorter-term buckets too (maybe even with ICSH or SGOV).
Again, I hope this doesn't come as negative, but I'm not sure this is making the risk clear. I am not sure I would suggest my portfolio companies to risk their treasuries unless I am sure they're fully understanding the risks associated. Do you intend to provide anything else?
On the government backing: it's a fair nuance to point out. In a technical sense, Ginnie Mae has the explicit full faith and credit guarantee while Fannie/Freddie are GSEs with an implicit one (and are under government conservatorship). But in practice, the distinction isn't really meaningful. In practice, the federal government has always guaranteed these loans (even in 2008, when they were under the most stress they've ever been, and there have been significant reforms as a result). There's no reason to think they'll ever stop. The scenario where the GSE guarantee fails is essentially the collapse of the US economy well beyond anything we saw in 2008 (in which case frankly we all have much bigger problems).
On the risks you mentioned: 1) Principal loss: given the guarantees re credit risk, and the fact that we use short-duration floating rate instruments to protect against price risk, this shouldn't really be a concern. 2) On spread risk: there can be slight variation in spread, mostly affecting yields; this is why we say "4.5-5%" yields given there's some variability in that range (but all far above money market). 3) On liquidity: agency MBS is the second most liquid fixed-income market in the world after Treasuries. In nearly all circumstances, liquidity is 1-2 business days. This product is really meant for long-term cash reserves; our idea is that companies should stop treating 6+ month cash the same as next month's payroll.
Ultimately we encourage founders to do their own research and understand what they're doing with their money. We wouldn't ask anyone to put short-term cash in a MBS portfolio (in the future we'll probably offer some other options too). But for long-term cash they're sitting on, the extra yield can be meaningful to the business: on $5M, it's an extra $50k-75k per year, or half a junior engineer's salary. Given the minimal risk, I think it's worthwhile for a lot of companies.
5% return is not competitive.
We're competing against long-term cash held in a money-market fund (an instrument optimized for short-term use with same-day liquidity) earning 3.5%. In that context our yields definitely are competitive.
If this gives an extra 1% per se, I imagine that is more worth it to a company fresh off a large fundraise with a ton of cash in the bank.
Startups otherwise are lean and won't hold enough cash to get a meaningful return from the 1%.
I've had an easy time setting up treasury accounts with Rho & Mercury for 2 co's, but the latter gave me a no-go on an account for a non profit.
Name suggestions are appreciated
Our goal is to make sophisticated treasury management easy for startups. With Palus, they don't need to manage a brokerage account, or handle treasury ladders, or anything like that.
It's actually "we found a way better set of instruments for long-term cash that allow us to offer better interest rates without giving up the cut altogether"
That being said, we do think the current treasury products can be a little predatory with their rates. For example, Rho charges a variable rate that peaks at 0.6% for any deposit of $2M or less. We think that's crazy so our margin is a flat 0.25%, no asterisks or fine print.