Surprisingly enough, this partially exposes the link between depression and some of the autoimmunal diseases. One example is how patients with psoriasis have significantly elevated levels of proteins from the IL-17 family (namely, IL-17A, IL-17C, and IL-17F) - up to 4 to 8 times above nominal values.
At the same time, bimekizumab, one of the bleeding-edge psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis treatments, suppresses production of IL-17A and IL-17F (methotrexate does that, too, albeit to a much smaller degree). As a result, people receiving IL-17 suppressors become happier over the course of years, and not only due to months-long remission - I had a chance to see this in one of the experimental treatment programs.
null_name 2 hours ago [-]
Interesting, I take risankizumab, which looks like it indirectly suppresses IL-17 (through suppressing IL-23A). I've been on it for a bit less than a year, and I can't say if I've had improved mood. Maybe? It definitely fixed the psoriasis. Might also have contributed to me getting sick more often, though.
I wish I had kept logs with some sort of self-screen depression instrument now (maybe the BDI? I don't like the PHQ-9). Might as well start now.
Zufriedenheit 3 hours ago [-]
Is that „becoming happier“ also observed with TNF blockers like Adalimumab?
FollowingTheDao 3 hours ago [-]
Another aspect of this is that high levels of IL 17 can cause mania in bipolar patients.
I do not know why doctors are so hesitant to link the immune system and mood disorders. I have schizoaffective disorder and I see this expressing myself every time. For example, when I caught Covid, I had one of the worst psychotic episodes in my life. None of my doctors really cared about this important correlation.
And I will scream this from the rooftops for as long as I can; mood disorders are immune disorders.
derefr 3 hours ago [-]
> I do not know why doctors are so hesitant to link the immune system and mood disorders.
People who call themselves doctors — e.g. neurologists — generally aren't hesitant to do this. But psychiatrists — and even moreso, therapists — generally are. And psychiatrists+therapists lead the conversation on mood disorders, since that's who everyone is talking to about their mood disorders.
IMHO it's just the hammer-and-nail thing. To a cardiologist, every medical problem is seen through a potentially cardiovascular lens; to an oncologist, every problem is a question of what type of cancer could cause it.
Psychiatrists are technically medical doctors, but they spend their entire careers (after a few short years of school) focusing on psych cases; where these patients' problems either are purely psychological (e.g. conditioned-response, traumatic-response, coping/defensive, attachment-related, etc.), or at best "we don't know" the degree to which they're psychological vs organic. (If we can recognize a problem as purely organic from the outset, that problem doesn't end up in the hands of a psychiatrist!) And either way, they usually see good results in clinical practice from treating the patient's mind, rather than addressing organic signs/symptoms directly. Even when they prescribe medication, they're measuring their success on a mental basis (using questionnaire-based instruments used to gauge mental changes) rather than observing changes in e.g. measurable behavioral signs. The problems they're faced with, and the successes they have via these models, reinforce in psychiatrists a mind-centered mental model / worldview for psychiatric disease. (A model which is "the right one" to use in many psychological diseases! But not for many others.)
And therapists aren't even medical doctors. They never learn much-at-all in school about potential organic causes of psychological (or medical) problems. They focus purely on this lens of "the mind", ignoring the lens of "the brain as an organ" entirely. This means that in clinical practice, when confronted with a problem that has both mental and organic aspects, a therapist will tend to ignore the organic aspects; and when confronted with a problem where the organic aspects are too large to ignore, the therapist will simply refer to a psychiatrist (or neurologist, maybe) — with no follow-up, and thereby, no way to end up learning what the patient's problem actually was and thereby evolving the neurological side of their understanding.
This is interesting! I've been having some pretty bad intermittent panic attacks over the past year or so and a thing I've noticed is that I have general inflammation across my body along with the panic attacks. For a long while I thought it was an infected tooth, but with that fixed and the panic attacks still ongoing, I'm not sure! But this is a nice confirmation that there's some correlation.
jagaerglad 5 hours ago [-]
this is rather amazing, I've always thought that my observation that I feel better in my brain after a good fever has to be imagination
gehwartzen 3 hours ago [-]
I take mustard baths occasionally (about a cups worth) when I feel a cold or virus coming on which seems to kind of fast track clearing out whatever is causing it. Feel amazing after. Better than baseline as I’ve found a similar effect when not sick.
yapyap 3 hours ago [-]
Yeah cause your point of reference is feeling like shit when you are feverish.
I guess depression makes for excellent self quaratine?
biomcgary 2 hours ago [-]
Yes, one would expect kin / group selection to play a role.
idontwantthis 5 hours ago [-]
Any idea if this protein has any relation with seratonin? Could the effect of SSRIs be related in any way?
dayvigo 4 hours ago [-]
Serotonin can decrease IL-17 production, and IL-17 is highly elevated in depressed patients. Inflammation is elevated in depressed patients more generally, but baseline IL-17 levels specifically appear to be a good predictor for antidepressant response[1]. Anti-depressants are pretty much universally anti-neuroinflammatory.
Serotonin has little relevance to depression and was more of a cute story doctors told patients in the '90s, that they were told by pharma reps.
api 4 hours ago [-]
AFAIK the truth is a little more complex: SSRIs do work for many people, but we don't really understand why and it's not as simple as 'more serotonin good.' They also don't work for everyone, and we don't understand why they don't work for some people either.
internet_rand0 4 hours ago [-]
seratonin is a molecule
this is a protein[1]
this question strikes me as asking if a quark has a relation with an atom
At the same time, bimekizumab, one of the bleeding-edge psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis treatments, suppresses production of IL-17A and IL-17F (methotrexate does that, too, albeit to a much smaller degree). As a result, people receiving IL-17 suppressors become happier over the course of years, and not only due to months-long remission - I had a chance to see this in one of the experimental treatment programs.
I wish I had kept logs with some sort of self-screen depression instrument now (maybe the BDI? I don't like the PHQ-9). Might as well start now.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27295856/
I do not know why doctors are so hesitant to link the immune system and mood disorders. I have schizoaffective disorder and I see this expressing myself every time. For example, when I caught Covid, I had one of the worst psychotic episodes in my life. None of my doctors really cared about this important correlation.
And I will scream this from the rooftops for as long as I can; mood disorders are immune disorders.
People who call themselves doctors — e.g. neurologists — generally aren't hesitant to do this. But psychiatrists — and even moreso, therapists — generally are. And psychiatrists+therapists lead the conversation on mood disorders, since that's who everyone is talking to about their mood disorders.
IMHO it's just the hammer-and-nail thing. To a cardiologist, every medical problem is seen through a potentially cardiovascular lens; to an oncologist, every problem is a question of what type of cancer could cause it.
Psychiatrists are technically medical doctors, but they spend their entire careers (after a few short years of school) focusing on psych cases; where these patients' problems either are purely psychological (e.g. conditioned-response, traumatic-response, coping/defensive, attachment-related, etc.), or at best "we don't know" the degree to which they're psychological vs organic. (If we can recognize a problem as purely organic from the outset, that problem doesn't end up in the hands of a psychiatrist!) And either way, they usually see good results in clinical practice from treating the patient's mind, rather than addressing organic signs/symptoms directly. Even when they prescribe medication, they're measuring their success on a mental basis (using questionnaire-based instruments used to gauge mental changes) rather than observing changes in e.g. measurable behavioral signs. The problems they're faced with, and the successes they have via these models, reinforce in psychiatrists a mind-centered mental model / worldview for psychiatric disease. (A model which is "the right one" to use in many psychological diseases! But not for many others.)
And therapists aren't even medical doctors. They never learn much-at-all in school about potential organic causes of psychological (or medical) problems. They focus purely on this lens of "the mind", ignoring the lens of "the brain as an organ" entirely. This means that in clinical practice, when confronted with a problem that has both mental and organic aspects, a therapist will tend to ignore the organic aspects; and when confronted with a problem where the organic aspects are too large to ignore, the therapist will simply refer to a psychiatrist (or neurologist, maybe) — with no follow-up, and thereby, no way to end up learning what the patient's problem actually was and thereby evolving the neurological side of their understanding.
Paper suggesting mood alteration: https://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(25)00278-8
[1]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28698115/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_serotonin_reuptake_i...
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Effect-of-IDO-on-seroton...
this is a protein[1]
this question strikes me as asking if a quark has a relation with an atom
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interleukin_17